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Is Marijuana Harmless?

I see that this study looks at specific receptors, but I can't help wondering, in a commonsense way, how much of that paranoia is just reasonable anxiety associated with doing something that is disapproved of, that is expensive, all because it is illegal.
Actually, you'll note that I didn't specifically contend against this claim. Pot's ability to cause paranoia is well known, and has been experienced by most users (including me). It's not just disapproval or risks because it's illegal. Pot is not a plaything, it's a recreational drug, and it can have bad effects; alcohol can make you aggressive and stupid so you get in a fight in a bar, or give you a hangover. Cigarettes will give you cancer (or more likely cardiovascular disease that causes heart attacks and strokes). There are no safe recreational drugs.

On the other hand, most users figure out what's going on with the paranoia relatively quickly, and ignore it; and once you figure out how to do that, it goes away. But pot is certainly not a good way to escape from your troubles; it's far more likely that you'll wind up contemplating them endlessly and agonizing over small details that are ultimately meaningless.
 
:boggled: Seriously, alcohol is a huge annoying problem too. Do you appreciate drunks on the road killing people? At least when a person sobers up, they usually act quite normal after a few days. The alchoholics have the usual long term problems though (hepatitis, lack of control over cognitive function), and it sucks if one of them is your parent.

It's not much different with people hooked on daily doses of MJ. The daily MJ dopers are noticeably different. Working with them is completely annoying, as they are slow to think, high strung, and figure you're out to get them in varying ways and degrees. It's like being around a schizophrenic. I hate working with regular dopers. /rant.

Ignore the withdrawal that regular dopers get, but studies show that regular dopers get them. Why ignore that?

I really don't care if it was legalized, as that won't change the effects it has on regular MJ smokers. Legalizing alcohol doesn't change the effects it has on alcoholics. Legalizing smoking doesn't change the fact that it is highly addictive and harmful over the long term.

Do it if you like it, but don't try to say one is better or less harmful than another. They all have their bad long term effects with regular (especially every day use), and withdrawals when regular users try to quit.

I guess regular smokers of tobacco are the least annoying of the three examples, but they smell and require frequent breaks. The more they smoke, the more smelly and nic fitty they get. It is very hard to quit smoking.

At least amokers act quite normal when they have their required nicotine fix. People who just get their MJ fix act less normal when they have had their fix. MJ affects the brain differently than tobacco. MJ affects cognitive function so negatively, that you might as well be drunk. It scares me that people drive after they smoke it.


What is a safe dose of MJ or alchohol? It depends on the person, but I really wish people would not be regular users of either and subject co-workers and loved ones to their behavior. I'm sure a person who uses MJ once a month is not the same as a daily doper.

so, dismiss the studies, call me non-credible, whatever. I'm annoyed that people try to say MJ is benign. It depends on the amount of usage more than anything, similar to alcohol. I wouldn't come to work or drive drunk. Don't come to work or drive high. I wouldn't drink numerous ounces of alcohol ounces of alchohol a day and figure I don't have a problem. Don't smoke MJ every day and figure it's "safer" than smoking tobacco every day. At least people can smoke tobacco and still drive normally. At least one to 25 cigarrettes a day won't change your cognitive function the way smoking MJ daily or drinking alcohol every day does.

Cigarettes are more addictive, but have different effects.
Alcohol and MJ are less addictive, but daily use has worse effects on the cognition than tobacco.

Justifying the use of one over the other is quite pointless. You're just choosing different reasons to do one or another. Why use any of it?

There are other antinauseants, painkillers, etc. Unless you're going to die, and are in palliative care, then trying to get THC no matter what should make you wonder why you feel you must have it so much.
 
Physical dependence and withdrawal symptoms are noted. 3 out of 3 verified.

Unsourced? Oy. Fine, I'll dig through all the studies and post some. sheesh. Basically the side effects are now common knowledge, but surrre, make me dig through boring articles that aren't in layman's terms.

*rolls eyes*

Just give me a few minutes.

Physical dependence is defined as "continuing to take a drug to avoid withdrawal illness". So that's only one of the three, not two. And I know of no scientific evidence that it occurs with MJ. No tolerance, either.
 
The smoking of cannabis, even long term, is not harmful to health.

British Medical Association's Lancet Supports Marijuana Law Reform

The Lancet
(The Lancet is a British medical journal)
Volume 346, Number 8985, November 11, 1995, p. 1241
Editorial

The Lancet
655 Avenue of the Americas
New York, NY 10010
Tel: (212) 633 3800
Fax: (212) 633 3850

The Lancet
42, Bedford Square
London, WC1B 3SL
Tel: +44 (0) 171 436 4981
Fax: +44 (0) 171 323 6441
 
Essentially, I don't mind your opinion, Eos; and I agree you have good reasons for it. What I object to is it being presented as medical fact when it's not. I think the wealth of material presented here is sufficient. I am not criticizing your opinion; I don't agree with it, but there is no definitive information to deny it, and at least some support for the idea that no one should take any recreational drug. On the other hand, it is a fact that most humans take one or another for various reasons, with various effects, and with various justifications. It seems to be a common behavior trait.
 
Physical dependence is defined as "continuing to take a drug to avoid withdrawal illness". So that's only one of the three, not two. And I know of no scientific evidence that it occurs with MJ. No tolerance, either.
They listed the withdrawal symptoms people avoid by continuing the drug to avoid the listed withdrawal illness.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_notes/NNVol17N3/Demonstrates.html
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a768421424~db=all

How many studies must be listed here before it is acceptable to say that MJ smoking causing withdrawal upon cessation in regular users?

They are trying to figure out ways to treat this well-known fact that MJ deprivation produces withdrawal in addicts.
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00114439;jsessionid=7801A63E4FEBE997E3DF77C2FEB1D96F?order=32

Knot,
Smoking cannabis has effects when people smoke it. Annoying and dangerous ones. That is undeniable.

Using an up to date reference helps as well, and ones with proper controls and placebo comparisions.

This will quickly get boring if we are just going to play the "oh yah, well I found a study that says this" game.

We know of long term effects of tobacco smoking. So what? Comparing them to MJ smoking is useless when we know that they are very different. It doesn't make TMJ smoking "better" than smoking tobacco. It's like saying jumping into a live volcano is better than jumping into a vat of 100% hydrochloric acid. You will get harmed either way, just differently. It doesn't really make one way better than the other.

We know MJ smoking is not good for the cardiovascular system, it deposits tar in your lungs, and affects cognition. If you quit smoking it, you will allow yourself to get back to normal, but only if you STOP smoking it. Long term studies that look at effects after you STOP using it will confirm it is good if you STOP using it.

Look at studies of people that never stop using it, and then try to tell me that the people are completely unaffected.
 
I believe my own experiences and knowing many people that still use MJ and that report. I just lost interest many, many years ago and never had a single withdraw or craving. I don't agree with you. Take a look at the P&T video, this guy has been smoking for years and he's a high profile broker in the stock exchange. He smokes in the morning, he smokes driving to work, he smokes on his lunch break, he smokes during breaks and when he goes home - every single day for 21 years.

You really should watch the video - just to get another perspective.

No one has ever died from an overdose of marijuana.


The Lancet is current enough. How many times do we need to rehash the argument with studies? Just enough so someone can get research grants because some big chemical company doesn't want legalization?
 
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They listed the withdrawal symptoms people avoid by continuing the drug to avoid the listed withdrawal illness.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/NIDA_notes/NNVol17N3/Demonstrates.html
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a768421424~db=all

How many studies must be listed here before it is acceptable to say that MJ smoking causing withdrawal upon cessation in regular users?

They are trying to figure out ways to treat this well-known fact that MJ deprivation produces withdrawal in addicts.
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00114439;jsessionid=7801A63E4FEBE997E3DF77C2FEB1D96F?order=32

....
As to the first study, the authors say, " Dramatic physical symptoms such as the pain, heavy sweating, and cramps associated with opiate withdrawal are not present." What they measured were soft self-reports of such things as irritability and other easily manipulated dependent measures. That's why it is not in the DSM IV R.
In the second article, note the qualifier "some".
 
People do die from smoking it. You have a five fold increase of a heart attack (myocardial infarction-caused by blood being held back from an area of the heart) after smoking it. Cocaine is worse, with a 24 fold increase of heart attack after smoking it.
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/103/23/2805

One stock broker smoking it all the time is no indication that it is harmless. Did they prove that his cognitive function is 100% normal? No. does he get along with others 100%? No (well, nobody does, but there's no proof he isn't wondering if his friends are giving him false info on stock stuff, or whatever his fuzzy thinking may be in this case). Did they prove that there isn't less blood going to his brain? No. Did they prove no effects on his cognition? No. Did they prove his life span has not been compromised? No. Did they prove his cardiovascular system is A-OK? No.

All P&T proved is one guy can still make a living smoking it, apparently day and night. That doesn't mean the stock broker isn't suffering the effects. Can they prove without a doubt this guy isn't just blowing smoke out his ying yang? Did they follow him for a year and document when, where, and how much he smoked every day? No.

This is why anecdotes are useless. And I hate to say it, but P&T have been wrong before, and recanted on the second-hand smoke thing at TAM3.


Smoking MJ is not harmless, in answer to the question in the OP.
 
As to the first study, the authors say, " Dramatic physical symptoms such as the pain, heavy sweating, and cramps associated with opiate withdrawal are not present." What they measured were soft self-reports of such things as irritability and other easily manipulated dependent measures. That's why it is not in the DSM IV R.
In the second article, note the qualifier "some".
I love you to bits JC, but now we're getting into semantics :p

Okay dokay, I'll quote:

Study Demonstrates That Marijuana Smokers Experience Significant Withdrawal

-marijuana smokers who stop using the drug while in their home environment suffer withdrawal symptoms that appear as severe as those associated with tobacco-smoking.

They compared it to tobacco-smoking withdrawal, but not opiate withdrawal. So what?

Duuuude, there are withdrawal symptoms. They exist.

They finally want to "prove it", so that treatments for the withdrawals can be researched, which will better enable people to quit smoking MJ.
 
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You know, sugar and salt is bad for you.

I believe the lancet report and the reports that support marijuana harm are fueled by research grants.

Duuuude, there are withdrawal symptoms. They exist.
Duuuudette, study this: I was a heavy daily smoker for some 15 years. I had absolutely no withdrawals nor cravings for 13 years. I didn't quit using pot, I just lost interest in getting high. When I quit smoking cigarettes, there was a definite withdrawal and craving. To this day, when I smell a cigarette, it still has a slight tug on me. Pot does not.


I do have a very bad computer and message board post whore addiction though.
 
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I suspected it all along, but that proves it! You're anti-semantic.
:D :D




Knot, some smokers report quitting cold turkey with barely a withdrawal symptom as well. Most are not so lucky.

Again, that is why we need studies, rather than anecdotes. All individual experiences will be different.

I can also tell you that I've been in several therapy groups, and many a person had the worst time quitting pot. Then they still want to smoke it months and years later and come up with all kinds of justifications as to why they should just start up again. They are far less fuzzy and paranoid while off it though. That glassy eyed look is so annoying, and so is the weirdly double sides to their personalities (on pot personality, craving pot personality). Anecdotes won't convince me that there is no physical dependency. We all know there can be an even stronger psychological dependency. Overwhelming documented evidence has conclusively shown the actual effects on the body while smoking MJ.

Conspiracy theories about research grants won't buy any respect from me either.

I guess time and more studies will surely tell. Right now the experiences on my end (useless anecdotes as they are as well) and properly conducted studies have me convinced that MJ is not harmless.

I just find high and/or pot craving people excessively annoying for so many reasons, sorry. Self medicating with pot and alcohol also leaves actual problems without effective treatment. There are such better ways to manage stress.
 
Duuuudette, study this: I was a heavy daily smoker for some 15 years. I had absolutely no withdrawals nor cravings for 13 years.

There's an exception to every rule. Of the 4 former pot smokers I personally know, 4 of the 4 say they still have occasional cravings.
 
Eos,
This is a serious matter to me because this kind of information is part of my intro psych course. The textbook (and others that I have at home) clearly states that cannabis has no risk of physical dependence, but does have health risks which include accidents, lung cancer, respiratory disease and pulmonary disease.
In the future, I'll cite the study you mentioned and discuss the points I mentioned a few posts ago.
This forum has led me to a lot of valuable information for my job and this thread is just one example of that.
 
There's an exception to every rule. Of the 4 former pot smokers I personally know, 4 of the 4 say they still have occasional cravings.

Cravings like, "Trying to quit smoking" cravings, or cravings like, "Oh! Hey! I really want to play that Thief game again!" type of cravings?

I have cravings just seeing my videogames in the same room with me.
 
...
Knot, some smokers report quitting cold turkey with barely a withdrawal symptom as well. Most are not so lucky.

Again, that is why we need studies, rather than anecdotes. All individual experiences will be different.

I can also tell you that I've been in several therapy groups, and many a person had the worst time quitting pot. Then they still want to smoke it months and years later and come up with all kinds of justifications as to why they should just start up again. They are far less fuzzy and paranoid while off it though. That glassy eyed look is so annoying, and so is the weirdly double sides to their personalities (on pot personality, craving pot personality). ...


I don't know about that, but I do know that Tyler ran out of weed and owes too much too his dealer, so he quit today. He went around yelling that he wasn't about to be pushed around by some chick with a cute avatar. Then he threw out all the paraphernalia.

We'll see how bad Tyler gets the runs this time. Usually, mild anxiety, insomnia and too much physical energy are the problems.

Then, in a week or so, Tyler will dream of old girlfriends, music stores, and weed with a familiar nostalgia. Not like craving cigarettes, and not like craving potato chips. Something in between. A deep yearning for something, but not a physical craving.
 
Eos,
This is a serious matter to me because this kind of information is part of my intro psych course. The textbook (and others that I have at home) clearly states that cannabis has no risk of physical dependence, but does have health risks which include accidents, lung cancer, respiratory disease and pulmonary disease.
In the future, I'll cite the study you mentioned and discuss the points I mentioned a few posts ago.
This forum has led me to a lot of valuable information for my job and this thread is just one example of that.

I also understand textbooks are constantly updated with new information. I feel there is a reason that withdrawal and physical dependence are being looked at now. Is it ethical to say there is no physical dependence when it has been so poorly studied?

Science is good in that sense, keeping checks and balances. Telling young people there is no risk of physical dependence is yet another "excuse" for them to say that MJ is completely harmless, and "better" than smoking.

I will also keep the studies handy when talking to my very own children. I've been lucky so far with my one teenager. He also will hopefully never try meth, since a play scared him witless about it.

A myth once incorporated is very hard to dispell. I will soon enough have 2 more teenagers in my home. I never want them to have some handy excuse to head into any harmful dependency.

Thank you for this discussion. It is very serious indeed.
 
I don't know about that, but I do know that Tyler ran out of weed and owes too much too his dealer, so he quit today. He went around yelling that he wasn't about to be pushed around by some chick with a cute avatar. Then he threw out all the paraphernalia.

We'll see how bad Tyler gets the runs this time. Usually, mild anxiety, insomnia and too much physical energy are the problems.

Then, in a week or so, Tyler will dream of old girlfriends, music stores, and weed with a familiar nostalgia. Not like craving cigarettes, and not like craving potato chips. Something in between. A deep yearning for something, but not a physical craving.
:eye-poppi Does Tyler have someone else, professional type (a good one, which can sometimes be hard to find) to help him through this? Sometimes group therapy can be very long-term and effective too.

From Boo's link previously:

Preliminary research, published in the April 2006 issue of the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, indicates that cannabis addiction can be offset by a combination of cognitive-behavioral therapy and motivational incentives. Participants in the study (previously diagnosed with marijuana dependence) received either vouchers as incentives to stay drug free, cognitive-behavioral therapy, or both over a 14-week period. At the end of 3 months, 43 percent of those who received both treatments were no longer using marijuana, compared with 40 percent of the voucher group, and 30 percent of the therapy group. At the end of a 12-month follow-up, 37 percent of those who got both treatments remained abstinent, compared with 17 percent of the voucher group, and 23 percent of the therapy group.[8]

Animal research has shown that the potential for cannabinoid psychological dependence does exist, and includes mild withdrawal symptoms. Although not as severe as that for alcohol, heroin, or cocaine dependence, marijuana withdrawal is usually characterized by insomnia, restlessness, loss of appetite, irritability, anger, increased muscle activity (jerkiness), and aggression after sudden cessation of chronic use as a result of physiological tolerance. Prolonged marijuana use produces both pharmacokinetic changes (how the drug is absorbed, distributed, metabolized, and excreted) and pharmacodynamic changes (how the drug interacts with target cells) to the body. These changes require the user to consume higher doses of the drug to achieve a common desirable effect, and reinforce the body’s metabolic systems for synthesizing and eliminating the drug more efficiently.[3]
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Health+issues+and+the+effects+of+cannabis
 
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I also understand textbooks are constantly updated with new information. I feel there is a reason that withdrawal and physical dependence are being looked at now. Is it ethical to say there is no physical dependence when it has been so poorly studied?

Science is good in that sense, keeping checks and balances. Telling young people there is no risk of physical dependence is yet another "excuse" for them to say that MJ is completely harmless, and "better" than smoking.

I will also keep the studies handy when talking to my very own children. I've been lucky so far with my one teenager. He also will hopefully never try meth, since a play scared him witless about it.

A myth once incorporated is very hard to dispell. I will soon enough have 2 more teenagers in my home. I never want them to have some handy excuse to head into any harmful dependency.

Thank you for this discussion. It is very serious indeed.

Telling kids that there is physical dependence when there are no hard data for it is as grave a mistake as the old "stepping stone" theory that pot invariably leads to heroin.
Propaganda, no matter how well-meaning the goal is, has the self-defeating property of biting itself in the keister when one fonsoon is discovered.
 

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