Palstinians Demonstrate Against Violence

[Schneibster]

It will not end.
I know why you are disturbed, it just cannot be helped.

I simply don't believe that. What I believe is that a minority on each side doesn't want it to end, and therefore will not bury the hatchet and move on. We can only hope that at some point, one side's majority gets pissed enough they unilaterally sit on the heads of the troublemakers on their side and either the majority on the other side realizes how bad that's making them look and does the same, or the rest of the world experiences moral revulsion and decides to interfere decisively.

Tom Clancy proposed that scenario for the Palestinians; they discover civil disobedience, Ghandi-style, and do to the Israelis what the Indians did to the British; but I see no reason why the Israelis could not do the same thing. I contend, in fact, that the side that realizes this first will win, at least in the court of public opinion, and quite likely in terms of being able to negotiate more effectively due both to their moral ascendancy and to pressure from other interested parties on the other side.

But to do it, one side has to be willing to absorb casualties in order to gain moral superiority over the other, and apparently neither side is sufficiently mature to do so. Sorry if you find that characterization distasteful, but that's how I see it. I've dealt with similar situations in the precisely analogous manner, and I have to tell you that it's been extremely effective for me; I've never lost more than I gained in the end, and it's never been a long wait.

 

[Mycroft]

I think you may be not sure because I wasn't claiming anything. Your statement was about "the media" here it is "So yeah, Palestinians are just like you and I. Except in the eyes of the media."

We have men brandishing heavy weapons marching down a street, they have angry facial expression and appear to be shouting. Yet despite the weapons, Rueters describes them in their caption as "demonstrating for peace."

Unfortunately this kind of blatant misrepresentation is not uncommon in that part of the world. It's that misrepresentation that my comments are focused on, and your attempts to extrapolate other things are inappropriate.

So you appear to have dropped the suggestion that you know what palestinians "are like"...

Before I "drop" a suggestion I have to make a suggestion, and I did not make the suggestion you claim I have made.

and agree with me that they are just like you and me...so I ask if you believe that "the media" misrepresents the palestinians where does chuckles from LGF get all his feed for his members? see the difference? I'm asking you to support your statements.

Except I have not made any statements about Little Green Footballs. You are the one who introduced that topic to this thread. There is no claim that I have made that needs any reference to LGF to support it.

Further, it is clear from my postings in this thread I am not talking about the entire media. Merely elements of it.

maybe you should modlfy your statement of who misrepresents "the palestinians" to something like "the media... except for the stuff I get fed on LGF"?

Maybe you should stop trying to personalize this argument by speculating on how I might modify my arguments, and focus instead on what I actually say. You seem to be working hard to extrapolate a position from me that is different from my actual position.

 

[davefoc]

So honestly, do you really think this is at all comparable to the kind of rock-star worship accorded to Palestinian suicide-bombers?

Both Mycroft and webfusion commented on my quote of the headstone of Baruch Goldstein. I think they feel that I meant to imply that there is widespread support for Goldstein or people like him in Israel. I didn't mean to imply that and I don't believe that. I have tried to get a feel for what the average Israeli feels about the Palestinian/Israeli conflict by reading various polls and my sense of it is that something close to a majority of Israelis would be pro-Palestinian by US standards.

I posted the quote in response to Mycroft's comment that it was necessary to dig deep to find terrorism venerated by Jewish Israelis. I don't think you have to dig deep to find that. I think it is pretty easy to find many stories about the mistreatment of Palestinians living near Jewish settlements. When that mistreatment is backed up by the power of the Israeli military that sounds like at least the acceptance of a kind of terrorism to me.

But acceptance of terrorism is not limited to a few Jewish kooks in Israel. The Israelis selected Begun as their prime minister and by just about anybody's measure he was a terrorist.

But, webfusion will say Begin was a terrorist during a time of war and that is different than what the Palestinians do who are terrorists during a time of peace. And I would buy that argument completely if everyday the Israelis didn't expand their hold on land the Palestinians see as theirs, and there is no more significant act of war than the taking of land.

None of this is to say that I think that the percentage of Palestinians who participate in or advocate terrorism isn't much greater than the percentage of Israelis who do. Obviously support for terrorism is much stronger in the Palestinian community. But I think webfusion and perhaps mycroft see this as proof of the moral superiority of the Jewish culture or Jews or the Israeli government. I don't think it is. Under similar pressures, Israel's founders engaged in widespread terrorism also. Israel today has no need to engage in terrorism to achieve its goals. It has a strong organized military to enforce its will.

 

[webfusion]

I simply don't believe that. (it won't end) *snip*

Matters not what you believe.
You will be long gone and your children, and their children will still be watching the jews of Israel defend themselves against islamic-fundamentalist murderers.

I have said before numerous times --- the conflict is not about land, or more accurately, it is not about the amount of land the jews wish to live on in peace. It is about the islamic-fundamentalists inability to reconcile with jews being in control of their own destiny in their midst.

We can only hope that at some point, ...the rest of the world experiences moral revulsion and decides to interfere decisively.

Don't hold your breath.

Tom Clancy proposed (a) scenario for the Palestinians;....

I very much doubt that Tom Clancy's novels have been translated to Arabic, or that anything he has written appears in the public libraries of the Palestinian Authority.

I contend, in fact, that the side that realizes this (civil disobediance) first will win, at least in the court of public opinion, and quite likely in terms of being able to negotiate more effectively due both to their moral ascendancy and to pressure from other interested parties on the other side.

SEE: Bei'ilin
http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Local/ImcIsraelVideo

Sorry if you find that characterization distasteful, but that's how I see it.

Doesn't bother me in the least. I just happen to think you are whistling dixie.
Nothing personal, schneibster.

As I've noted, this is not a two-sided issue, and outside forces have an influence, beyond the confines of the Palestinian Authority. Placing the conflict into the narrow definition of "Palestine vs. Israel" is a critical and vital error in understanding the overall dynamics that are in play.

 

[webfusion]

Obviously support for terrorism is much stronger in the Palestinian community. But I think webfusion and perhaps mycroft see this as proof of the moral superiority of the Jewish culture or Jews or the Israeli government.

Can't speak for mycroft, but I just see it as :
Support for terrorism is much stronger in the Palestinian community, and that is merely proof that they are idiots, who fail totally to comprehend that peace means disarmament and relinquishing their fantasy of rockets and mortars actually gaining them anything.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/853531.html
Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi, warned on Sunday that if Palestinian attacks continue Israel will have no alternative but to "take action," adding that a major ground operation in the Gaza Strip would be necessary to effectively halt the ongoing rocket fire.

 

[a_unique_person]

Matters not what you believe.
You will be long gone and your children, and their children will still be watching the jews of Israel defend themselves against islamic-fundamentalist murderers.

I have said before numerous times --- the conflict is not about land, or more accurately, it is not about the amount of land the jews wish to live on in peace. It is about the islamic-fundamentalists inability to reconcile with jews being in control of their own destiny in their midst.

Where are the Islamic Fundies in Northern Ireland, Scotland, Indai, or any other country that has a colonialist past? The fundies are a relatively recent arrival on the scene. The messy bit is using the force required to ensure your presence is accepted, which is the usual way, or a negotiated compromise. However, these processes can take centuries to be anything like finalised, if past history is anything to go by. Even then, situations like Scotland will just simmer away, and re-appear when you thought they were well and truly over. There won't be fighting over Scotland, but they now have their own Parliament similar to a State in Australia, when before they didn't have one.

 

[webfusion]

The (islamic) fundies are a relatively recent arrival on the scene.

In March 1954 Arab gunmen ambushed and attacked an Israeli bus at Malei Akribim.

Um, a_u_p, there was no "occupation" in 1954, so to what is this terrorism attributable? Perhaps islamic fundamentalism?

 

[a_unique_person]

I was talking about fundies, as you specified. Those who were displaced saw an invasion, not an occupation. If they ran from a battle, they were proclaimed to have lost their homes, if they didn't leave, they were proclaimed to be non citizens. A lose/lose situation.

Terrorist acts were conducted by both sides.

 

[Mycroft]

I was talking about fundies, as you specified. Those who were displaced saw an invasion, not an occupation. If they ran from a battle, they were proclaimed to have lost their homes, if they didn't leave, they were proclaimed to be non citizens. A lose/lose situation.

Who was proclaimed to be non citizens?

 

[webfusion]

...if they didn't leave, they were proclaimed to be non-citizens.

Those who stayed were, and are, Israeli citizens.

Those who were displaced saw an invasion.

No arabs were displaced and forced to leave from palestine during the entire period from the 1880's as the Zionist enterprise began, all the way through WW2. The only people who were displaced were the jews, who endured a strict immigration quota, and nobody today can determine the numbers of jews who died as a result of being kept out of palestine. Not one arab, AFAIK, died in the period of 1880's - 1945, as a result of being "displaced" ---- you are welcome to show me otherwise, a_u_p.

In the years leading to the establishment of Israel, the facts show that Arabs from surrounding lands streamed into Palestine, swelling the population, and becoming "Palestinians" deluxe -- and counted as natives from time immemorial.

Terrorist acts were conducted by both sides.

• During the period between 1948 and 1967, the tortuous and elongated border between Israel and its neighbours was annually the scene of hundreds of Arab raids across the line. Israeli men, women and children, were killed indiscriminately, villages were attacked, houses blown up and civilians kidnapped in unending Arab guerrilla warfare.
  
  Between May 1950 (when the armistice lines were guaranteed by the great powers - now we are currently witnessing an attempt of a repeat performance) and October 1953, 421 Israelis were killed or wounded, there were 128 acts of sabotage involving explosives and 866 armed attacks. Or perhaps we should refer to 1955 as a typical year in which there were 257 Israeli casualties along the so-called 1949 Rhodes cease fire lines, including 75 dead, 179 wounded and 3 taken prisoner.
  
  
  June 9, 1953 - Lod and Hadera
  Fedayin killed a resident of Lod, after throwing hand grenades and spraying gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of "islamic resistance fighters" attacked a house in Hadera.
  
  June 11, 1953 - Kfar Hess
  Fedayin attacked a young couple in their home and shot them to death.

 

[mijopaalmc]

You might want to check these lists out:

Who used terrorism first

Zionist pioneers of terrorism

It looks like the Palestinians and Arabs may have learned some of their terrorist ways from the Zionists and the Israelis. It is interesting that the Israelis, for instance, staged the first airplane hijacking, one of the favorite methods of Arabs terrorists in the 1970's.

 

[webfusion]

July 22, 1968 - Rome, Italy
The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) carries out first hijacking, diverting an El Al flight to Algiers. 32 Jewish passengers were held hostage for 5 weeks.

Sep 4, 1968 - Tel Aviv, Israel
1 killed and 71 wounded by 3 bombs that exploded in city center.

Oct 1968 - Hijacking of El Al aircraft en route to Algeria.

Nov 22, 1968 - Jerusalem, Israel
12 killed and 52 injured by a car bomb in the Mahaneh Yehuda market.

Dec 26, 1968 - Athens, Greece
1 killed and 1 wounded in a shooting attack on an El Al aircraft at the airport, carried out by the PFLP.

Feb 18, 1969 - Zurich, Switzerland
A pilot and 3 passengers killed by "Liberators of Palestine" that attacked an El Al Boeing 707 on the airport runway.

Feb. 21, 1969 - Jerusalem, Israel
2 killed and 20 injured by a bomb detonated in a crowded supermarket.

Oct. 22, 1969 - Haifa, Israel
4 killed and 20 wounded by "Brave Resistance Fighters" bombs in 5 apartments.

February 10, 1970 - Zurich, Switzerland
1 killed and 11 wounded by 3 Arab martyrs who unsuccessfully attempted to hijack an El Al flight at Zurich airport.

May 22, 1970 - Avivim, Israel
"Freedom Loving Islamic Faithful" attack schoolbus, killing 12 (9 of whom were children), and wounding 24.

Sep 6, 1970 - Dawson Field, Jordan
3 airliners holding over 400 passengers were hijacked, and taken to the Jordanian airport by the PFLP. The hostages were released in exchange for terrorists held in Germany, Switzerland, and England.

May 8, 1972 - Lod airport, Israel
1 passenger and 5 Israeli soldiers killed during a rescue operation by Israeli commandos on a hijacked Belgian airliner; the 4 Palestinian Black September "heros" were killed. The hostages were freed.

May 30, 1972 - Lod (Ben Gurion) national airport
26 killed and 78 wounded after "militants" open fire in the passenger terminal.

September 5, 1972 - Munich, Germany
11 members of the Israeli Olympic wrestling team and 1 German policeman were massacred by Fatah terrorists after an unsuccessful rescue attempt by West German authorities.

April 11, 1974 - Kiryat Shemona, Israel
18 killed, 8 of whom were children, by PFLP terrorists who detonated their explosives.

May 15, 1974 - Maalot, Israel
27 killed, 21 of whom were children, and 78 wounded by "Palestine Liberation Front" gunmen in a school.

March 5, 1975 - Tel Aviv, Israel
Islamic fundamentalists take over the Savoy hotel; 4 people are killed.

July 4, 1975 - Jerusalem, Israel
14 killed and 80 injured in Zion Square bombing attack, in which the bomb was hidden in a junked refrigerator on the street.

June 27, 1976 - Entebbe, Uganda
An Air France airliner was hijacked & diverted to Entebbe airport. About 258 passengers and crew were held hostage until all non-Israeli passengers were released. On July 4th, Israeli commandos flew to Uganda and rescued the remaining hostages. All terrorists were killed, as well as 3 passengers and operation leader Lieutenant-Colonel Yonatan Netanyahu.

Aug 11, 1976 - Istanbul, Turkey
4 killed and 20 wounded by "Palestinian Heros" in an attack at Istanbul airport.

Mar 11, 1978 - Glilot junction
36 killed, and over 100 injured, in a bus hijacking by a female-led Palestinian terrorist gang.

Apr 7, 1980 - Kibbutz Misgav-Am, Israel
"Brave Resistance Fighters" attack children's house on the kibbutz, leaving 3 dead, one of whom was a child.

Oct 7, 1985 - PLFP commits piracy upon the Achille Lauro ship en route to Israel, ultimately murdering one of the passengers (an American national).

Sep 6, 1986 - Istanbul, Turkey
Abu Nidal (another big hero) attacks the Neveh Shalom synagogue, killing 22 people.

Aug 1988 - Haifa
25 wounded in a "Fearless Liberator" grenade attack at the Haifa mall.

Jul 6, 1989 - Tel Aviv
14 killed when an Islamic Jihadist wrests the wheel from the driver and steers a bus into a ravine off the Jerusalem-Tel Aviv highway.



OK, now where is the list of terrorism against the palestinians from my side?

Glorification of terrorists is hardly confined to the Palestinian side. You don't have to dig too deep to find there are some Israelis doing the same thing.

I would post the laughing dog, but it is too cliche!

 

[webfusion]

You might want to check these lists out:
It looks like the Palestinians and Arabs may have learned some of their terrorist ways from the Zionists and the Israelis. It is interesting that the Israelis, for instance, staged the first airplane hijacking, one of the favorite methods of Arabs terrorists in the 1970's.

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/1194/9411071.htm

• The IAF diverted the aircraft, in an effort to pressure the Syrians to release IDF soldiers who had been captured only days earlier. Ultimately, the incident escalated, when on Dec. 11, 1955, Israel sent two paratroop battalions (backed by artillery and mortar batteries) under the command of Ariel Sharon against Syrian military posts at Buteiha Farm and Koursi. It was Israel's largest military raid inside Syria up to that time and resulted in 56 Syrian deaths, including three women, and nine wounded. Significantly Israel also took 30 prisoners, whom it later used as hostages to exchange for the four Israelis held by Syria.

I'm not 100% sure, but to classify that entire episode as "terrorism" seems somewhat disingenuous.

 

[mijopaalmc]

webfusion-

Is this just going to be a case of you listing atrocities that the Palestinians have committed against the Israelis and then someone (not necessarily me) listing the atrocities that the Israelis have committed against the Palestinians?

It certainly seems that that is what this thread and by analogy the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict has devolved into. I think the tit-for-tat listing that has occurred here is what frustrates some of the other posters in this thread. It seems that one is saying that just because one side has suffered more casualties or been the brunt of more attacks that that side is the victim. The conflict won't be resolved until both sides realize that neither one of them is the victim and both of them are the perpetrators. In short, saying "the Israelis/Palestinians are the real terrorists because they engage in terrorism more and therefore the Israelis/Palestinians are the victims and don't need to make any concessions" doesn't solve anything and only perpetuates the internecine feud.

 

[webfusion]

Here is the bottom line ------

By prior agreement, and by their own declarations, the palestinians have a requirement to do the following, starting right now:
Disarm rougue elements.
Relinquish terrorism as a method of "resistance".

These are essential things for the Palestinian Authority. The entire civilized world expects that of them. Having maniacs march in the streets, demonstrating for "peace" carrying RPGs and Qassems, and glorifying the suicide bombers as heroes, is totally, 100%, unquestionably, unacceptable.

Period.

 

[webfusion]

quoting davefoc:
"And I would buy that argument completely if everyday the Israelis didn't expand their hold on land the Palestinians see as theirs, and there is no more significant act of war than the taking of land."

Davefoc, the Palestinians see all of Israel as theirs. You know that is a fact.
In point of law, there is NO "Palestinian Land" -- it is only disputed territory.
Israel has, more than once, offered 95% of the West Bank to them (and 100% of Gaza already).

Their claim for 100% of the land beyond the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines is never going to be realized. 95-97% is the best they can achieve, especially with the wall/barrier in place.

If they persist in building up their terrorist infrastructure, and feel that they can wage a war of attrition, continuing to kill Israelis on and on and on, with no penalty, they are wrong. Dead wrong.

First and foremost, they must, without question, without any further nonsense, lay down their arms and stop perpetrating acts of wanton violence against Israel.

Enough.

 

[Mycroft]

You might want to check these lists out:

Who used terrorism first

Zionist pioneers of terrorism

It looks like the Palestinians and Arabs may have learned some of their terrorist ways from the Zionists and the Israelis. It is interesting that the Israelis, for instance, staged the first airplane hijacking, one of the favorite methods of Arabs terrorists in the 1970's.

Those are some pretty biased sources you've chosen there, sport.

 

[The Fool]

Here is the bottom line ------

By prior agreement, and by their own declarations, the palestinians have a requirement to do the following, starting right now:
Disarm rougue elements.
Relinquish terrorism as a method of "resistance".

These are essential things for the Palestinian Authority. The entire civilized world expects that of them. Having maniacs march in the streets, demonstrating for "peace" carrying RPGs and Qassems, and glorifying the suicide bombers as heroes, is totally, 100%, unquestionably, unacceptable.

Period.

Disarm Rogue elements....sounds easy doesn't it.
The IDF could never achieve it with an overwhelming modern armed force. Who are you requiring this be done by? Do you think they will need some help to achieve it?

 

[mijopaalmc]

Those are some pretty biased sources you've chosen there, sport.

I'll admit the second one is, but the first one cites all of its sources and sometimes comes up with several corroborating sources. In fact, it is rather easy to corroborate most of the events on the first page by either visiting the Irgun website or the Jerusalem Post archive. Now, I must admit that I am getting the whole business of the "firsts" in terrorism from the Qumsiyeh site, but I think that it would be pretty hard to deny that these events happened are were traced to Irgun or the Hagannah if you consulted the primary sources.

I guess my final question would be: do you find the sources biased because they implicate Israeli nationalist movements in terrorism or because you dispute the accuracy of the sources I cited?

If it is the former, it seems we have a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

If it is that latter, I welcome any refutation based on the historical will gladly retract any statement any statement previously made.

 

[Mycroft]

Disarm Rogue elements....sounds easy doesn't it.
The IDF could never achieve it with an overwhelming modern armed force. Who are you requiring this be done by? Do you think they will need some help to achieve it?

Same old, same old.

For maybe the 50th or 60th time, it's that the Palestinians make zero attempt to do this that is the issue, not that they fail to do it. Failure would at least imply that they tried.

Are you ever going to respond to that? Or are you going to pretend it wasn't said?