• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Chocolate Jesus Exhibit Canceled

IIf you do, that's your taste at work, all to the good. I don't disagree that the natural condition, at birth, is unclothed, how can you be surprised, and less than understanding, that those whose symbol Jesus is find someone playing fast and loose with their (Catholic) conventions distasteful?

And Michelangelo played fast and loose with the convention of putting a fig leaf over Adam and Eve.

I never saw Mel Gibson's The Passion. Did he show Jesus naked? I know that he was concerned about biblical accuracy and not historical accuracy (thus nails were through the hands and feet, not the wrists and ankles), but had he shown Jesus naked, would he had been praised by Catholics for "showing it how it was," like he was for showing all the violence?
 
And Michelangelo played fast and loose with the convention of putting a fig leaf over Adam and Eve.

I never saw Mel Gibson's The Passion. Did he show Jesus naked? I know that he was concerned about biblical accuracy and not historical accuracy (thus nails were through the hands and feet, not the wrists and ankles), but had he shown Jesus naked, would he had been praised by Catholics for "showing it how it was," like he was for showing all the violence?
Was he making a documentary? No. So in that light, your question strikes me as irrelevant. There is also the matter of artistic vision, and what an actor, or actress, will or won't do.

Was he concerned with Catholic symbolism and convention? I was under the impression he was, given the name of the film and his public profession of being an old school Catholic.

I am not Catholic, and I liked the film, though I found some of his artistic license curious. My short review of it was:

Braveheart meets Jesus Christ Superstar.

It was a Hollywood thing. The second release, with about 7 minutes of the gore-a-thon edited out, was better than the original, as my tastes go. I thought he could have done a few more flashbacks than he did, evenly spaced, to put more message linkage in, but heck, it was his film.

DR
 
Was he making a documentary? No. So in that light, your question strikes me as irrelevant. There is also the matter of artistic vision, and what an actor, or actress, will or won't do.

Was he concerned with Catholic symbolism and convention? I was under the impression he was, given the name of the film and his public profession of being an old school Catholic.

But you didn't answer the question. If he HAD shown Jesus naked, what would have the response been? Would he have been praised for "showing it how it was," like he was for showing all the violence?
 
If man were meant to prance about in this world naked he would have been born that way.

With all of the food related stories in the Gospels, shouldn't one of them have included a mention of Jesus taking part in the wine/food if not a recognition of the "fully human" Jesus enjoying his repast?

Luke 24:42
It's probably included at this point to demonstrate specifically that Jesus is "fully human".
 
You seem to want to characterize it, misleadingly, as essentially an "assault on Christian sensibilities" instead of an assault on actual Christians, which is obviously far more serious.
You are the one being misleading. I am not characterizing it as essentially an assualt on Christian sensibilities, I am simply saying that its properties in that regard are larger than chocolate Jesuses. Suppose someone were to describe a gay bashing incident as "the worst attack on homosexuals ever", and I were to ask "Worse than the Holocaust?", and you were to respond "The Holocaust was an attack on Jews, not homosexuals, and it's misleading to chracterize it as essentially an attack on homosexuals".

At any rate, your inference about Donohue's position was unwarranted.

Even if the Catholic Church bore institutional culpability for the sex abuse (which is not evident), what you say would still be untrue.
The only way it could not be evident is if you are ignorant of the facts. How in the world is someone who knowingly supports an institution responsible for child rape not morally deficient?

It's far from clear why, if only he'd been more indignant, he'd have resigned, any more than I would have expected the president of the Navy League to resign if only he'd been a bit more indignant about the Tailhook scandal.
That comparison is absurd. The sex abuse scandal never could have happened without the willful and egregious negligence of the general leadership, and the active support of specific leaders. When that big of a scandal breaks, the only reasonable response is for the Pope, as well as anyone who could have stopped it, but didn't, to resign; establish procedures to keep it form happening again; and cooperate with the civil and criminal actions against the Church and its leaders.

Donohue's outfit wasn't responsible for the abuse; he doesn't report to anyone who was responsible for it; and his organization is also dedicated to serving the interests of a class of people (individual Catholics) to which the sex abuse victims and their families belong.
Where do priests get their money? Where do they find kids to abuse? Catholics provided priests with opportunity to abuse kids. Donohue's organization represents Catholics. Hence, Donohue's organization is responsible. If it serves the interests of Catholics, then, unless it is in the interests of Catholics to be complicit in sex abuse, the organization should vigorously respond to the scandal.

I don't see how his resignation in protest would have had even symbolic, much less practical, value - and Donohue appears to be, if nothing else, someone who knows a thing or two about what constitutes an effective protest.
You seriously don't see how the head of the Catholic League resigning would not have had a symbolic value?

I can't think of any mention in the Gospels of Jesus eating and only two mentions of any sort of bodily function: "Jesus wept."
Well, it does mention him being rather hungry after fasting for 40 days.
 
But you didn't answer the question. If he HAD shown Jesus naked, what would have the response been? Would he have been praised for "showing it how it was," like he was for showing all the violence?
If he had? Your red herring on "showing it how it was" presumes either of us knows how it was, though I imagine the Romans probably did strip all of their crucifixees naked, as noted above.

Catholic conventions informing a Catholic's artistic vision: who'd have thunk it?

Since you are now into might-have-beens, I'll play: Mel might have gotten an X or NC-17 rating, and alienated the bulk of his audience. No money in that. Keeping to the convention made sense, considering his target audience.

He's not an idiot, old Mel, whether you like him or not. I do get the impression he's a mean drunk, so I'll not have him over to the house for a beer or ten

DR
 
Last edited:
If Mel had his jesus stripped naked, and strategically not have a penis on camera, I don't think the catholics would get into an uproar. I think that with all of the violence in that movie, one glimpse of a schlong would anger many people. Violence = ok. Nudity = evil.
 
If he had? Your red herring on "showing it how it was" presumes either of us knows how it was,

But that was the whole reason for the violence, because he wanted to show everything Jesus had to go through (as I said, "biblical accuracy"). And christian audiences ate it up, accepting it because it was an "accurate" depiction of what he went through.

Since you are now into might-have-beens, I'll play: Mel might have gotten an X or NC-17 rating, and alienated the bulk of his audience.

Of course it wouldn't have gotten an NC-17 rating, so that was a pretty idiotic answer.

Yes, it might have alienated some of the audience, but then again, that's kind of my point. Why is massive violence acceptable, as long as it is part of such an important story, whereas a simple glimpse of pee-pee, also part of the story, is not?
 
Why is massive violence acceptable, as long as it is part of such an important story, whereas a simple glimpse of pee-pee, also part of the story, is not?
Why are you asking me? I don't have that answer. FWIW, Graham Chapman did have a short full frontal scene in Life of Brian, and his Judith as well, and neither of them got the X/NC-17, so maybe the actor wasn't interested in being the sausage salesman.

Perhaps Mel might be the right person to question on this one. I have guessed as far into that creative brain as I can.

DR
 
. . . This is my body. Take from it and eat . . . all of you, for this is the body of the everlasting Almond Joy . . . because sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't! ;)
 
You are the one being misleading. I am not characterizing it as essentially an assualt on Christian sensibilities, I am simply saying that its properties in that regard are larger than chocolate Jesuses. Suppose someone were to describe a gay bashing incident as "the worst attack on homosexuals ever", and I were to ask "Worse than the Holocaust?", and you were to respond "The Holocaust was an attack on Jews, not homosexuals, and it's misleading to chracterize it as essentially an attack on homosexuals".

OK, I'm supposing it. Now what?

You're missing the point, Art. The Holocaust involved assaults, often fatal ones, on people (whether Jewish, Christian, Roma, disabled, homosexual, or otherwise). The chocolate Jesus incident was limited to an assault, at most, on sensibilities (tastes and feelings). It makes sense that Donohue would be comparing it to other incidents in which only tastes and feelings were offended and no one's person was assaulted. Unless there is evidence somewhere explicitly establishing that Donohue meant to include within the scope of his comparison instances where people were physically assaulted (such as your examples of sex abuse, the Holocaust, or 9/11), it's simply unreasonable to infer that he believes that the chocolate Jesus incident was comparable to those other things.


The only way it could not be evident is if you are ignorant of the facts.

Were it not for, among other things, my professional contacts with members of the litigation bar in the relevant jurisdictions, my familiarity with many of the relevant court records, and my knowledge of the principles of collective liability for criminal acts and other wrongful conduct, I might lack confidence in my grasp of the pertinent facts of the clerical sex scandal in the United States, Art. As it is, not only do I think my grasp of them reasonably solid, but I recognize the limitations of the available facts.


That comparison is absurd. The sex abuse scandal never could have happened without the willful and egregious negligence of the general leadership, and the active support of specific leaders.

I don't know exactly what you mean by "active support", but the rest of it is consistent with what emerged from the Tailhook investigations. Indeed, in the case of Tailhook, credible allegations of misconduct during and after the incident went much higher up the chain of command then was ever the case with respect to the Catholic sex abuse scandal (recall what came out about the Secretary of the Navy and the Chief of Naval Operations). Based on the only criteria you've offered, the analogy isn't absurd. Moreover, you haven't indicated why the head of the Catholic League, solely by virtue of his position, is any more implicated in the sex abuse scandal than the head of the Navy League, solely by virtue of his position, was implicated in Tailhook, which was the real point of that example.


When that big of a scandal breaks, the only reasonable response is for the Pope, as well as anyone who could have stopped it, but didn't, to resign; establish procedures to keep it form happening again; and cooperate with the civil and criminal actions against the Church and its leaders.

Given that the person who was pope when the scandal brok presided over a steep decline in sexual abuse incidents (they trailed off remarkably during the course of John Paul II's papacy) and that I'm not aware of any evidence that he was at all personally negligent or responsible, I query whether his resignation would have been reasonable under the circumstances. It appears that some measures to keep it from happening were implemented well before the scandal actually broke, and such measures were greatly heightened when the nature of the problem was made clear to Rome and the U.S. bishops' conference. As for criminal proceedings against the institutional Church and its leaders, the reason few have been seriously contemplated even by the most zealous prosecutors is that the facts are simply insufficient to support a finding of criminal misconduct. (Individual priests are another matter.) Even the civil lawsuits have resulted in findings of actual institutional liability on a surprisingly small number of occasions; were it not for the fairly liberal application of the doctrine of respondeat superior, most such cases would have a hard time getting off the ground except as regards the individual priests.

Also, although you suggest that "the only reasonable response is for ... anyone who could have stopped it, but didn't, to resign", you still haven't shown why Donohue fits that description.


Where do priests get their money? Where do they find kids to abuse? Catholics provided priests with opportunity to abuse kids. Donohue's organization represents Catholics. Hence, Donohue's organization is responsible.

By all indications, sexual misconduct with minors (and the associated ass-covering and general mishandling by bureaucrats) has been at least as big a problem (and probably bigger) in public school districts as in Catholic dioceses. Where do public schoolteachers get their money? Where do they find kids to abuse? Taxpayers and parents provided schoolteachers with opportunity to abuse kids. The PTA represents parents and taxpayers. Hence, the PTA is responsible. By your reasoning, why shouldn't the PTA president resign?


You seriously don't see how the head of the Catholic League resigning would not have had a symbolic value?

I take it you concede that it would not have had any practical value. But no, I seriously don't see how Donohue's resignation would have carried much in the way of symbolic value. In fact, I find the suggestion itself to be fundamentally unserious.
 
Last edited:
Well, you could ask Richard Herring, who did depict Jesus in a loincloth on stage (or rather he directed Jesus in a loincloth on stage, I'm not sure who the actor was), the fundamentalist group "Christian Voice" put out a press release that the loincloth was actually a nappy (diaper for Americans), the press went up in arms and death threats followed. Following conventions is no protection seemingly.

Was it Richard Herring, or Stuart Lee?
 
For the same reason it's art to create a sculpture of David nude. Or paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel with nude figures.

But everyone knows Michelangelo was a hack who was only interested in shocking people.
 
I don't see what would make you doubt it, except possibly a desire to imagine yourself morally superior to Donohue. I hope I'm wrong about that, though. Donohue, by the way, has said:



(source)

In my experience, the people most outraged by Catholic clerical sex abuse tend to be the Catholics themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if Donohue were even more indignant about it than you or I.

Then where is the expression of his outrage? Is he foaming at the mouth on TV against pedophile priests the same he he's foaming at the mouth over Our Savior of Truffles?
 
Then where is the expression of his outrage? Is he foaming at the mouth on TV against pedophile priests the same he he's foaming at the mouth over Our Savior of Truffles?

Why would he? It is an internal issue and so not something that can be thought of as persecution, and many Christians seem to want to be persecuted, because they react to anything even things that don't happen as persecution. See the recent case where a girl in school was told by the assistant principle to not read the bible, thus persecuting her, even though the assistant principle was out that day.

Christians get persecuted no matter what anyone does, because you don't even need to do anything to persecute them.
 
Why would he? It is an internal issue and so not something that can be thought of as persecution, and many Christians seem to want to be persecuted, because they react to anything even things that don't happen as persecution. See the recent case where a girl in school was told by the assistant principle to not read the bible, thus persecuting her, even though the assistant principle was out that day.

Christians get persecuted no matter what anyone does, because you don't even need to do anything to persecute them.

(Insert agreement with assertion that Christianity is a persecution delusion here.)
 
Riddle me this, Batman.

Whence this obsession with Jesus' dick among iconoclastic, (atheist?)secularist artists?

DR

Whence the Xtian God's obsession with my dick, and what I do with it?

I think part of the motivation to have a nude representation of Jesus is simply knowing that it's going to cause a stir among the most ardent followers. To me, this just demonstrates the hang-ups they have about sexuality in general. Of course, I could be reading too much into the artist's intentions...

--
jwr
 
Whence the Xtian God's obsession with my dick, and what I do with it?

I think part of the motivation to have a nude representation of Jesus is simply knowing that it's going to cause a stir among the most ardent followers. To me, this just demonstrates the hang-ups they have about sexuality in general. Of course, I could be reading too much into the artist's intentions...

--
jwr

I am not so sure that God is obssessed with your dick, and what you do with it, but some of His followers seem to be. ;) You were born naked, after all. If I understand The Fall story correctly, the shame tied to being naked came from the serpant's corruption via apple, but that's probably a matter best discussed in R & PE. The point was that they were aware of being naked, not that God scowled at them and said "Hey, you naked people, get thee a fig leaf, and quicklyQ!" He was pissed at them for disobedience, not nudity. Furthermore, he told them to go screw each other's brains out: "Go forth, be fruitful, and multiply." Or maybe he told them to be homosexual and do math, and they once again disobeyed Him and screwed each other out of spite for not having gotten better clothing than Fig Leaves.

There is a lot left unexplained by Scripture, to be sure. But back to nude Christians . . .

As I understand the history, early Christians did their baptisms rather literally: by disrobing, getting into the pool naked, and then emerging to be clothed in a new robe or cloak. I am not sure if chocolate figured into it, but I doubt it since chocolate is a new world goody.

Back on page 1, fuelair captured what is probably the essence of the artist's message:

"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. If I do this, they'll talk about me." It appears that some people also threatened the "me" in question. :(

DR
 
Then where is the expression of his outrage? Is he foaming at the mouth on TV against pedophile priests the same he he's foaming at the mouth over Our Savior of Truffles?

I don't know the answer to that (though we know Donohue said he was furious). I haven't followed this fellow's TV appearances over the years. Yet presumably anyone who think's it's relevant to whether Donohue was indignant about the abuse and wishes to suggest that he wasn't, ought to start doing the research. But it's not even clear why we'd expect him to go on TV for that purpose. Whatever private indignation he may feel about this, that or the other thing, Donohue's organization has the fairly specific purpose of opposing instances of defamation, discrimination and prejudice against, and infringement of free exercise and free speech rights of, Catholics as such. Sex abuse doesn't really involve those things (except to the extent people might use the scandal as a pretext for religious bigotry, etc.). So however indignant Donohue might privately be, it doesn't relate directly to his official capacity.
 
I am not so sure that God is obssessed with your dick, and what you do with it, but some of His followers seem to be. ;)

Definitely agree about the followers. There do seem to be passages indicating that they get those ideas from their text, though. However, that's not my point, I was just being snarky :)


Back on page 1, fuelair captured what is probably the essence of the artist's message:

"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about. If I do this, they'll talk about me." It appears that some people also threatened the "me" in question. :(

DR

I do agree that that was the main part of his intention.

--
jwr
 

Back
Top Bottom