• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Non-Homeopathic Belladonna

Out of the hundreds of possible "Plan B's", how do you choose one? Out of the hundreds of possible "Plan B's", how do you avoid the ones that are harmful (keeping in mind that we don't know if death is inevitable)?
According to "An American Prophet", Cayce had given several accurate readings for Tommy's mother, and so she had trust in Cayce's treatment in her son's case. In general, I would argue that, if three medical doctors agree that a patient is going to die imminently and no other doctor contradicts them, you might as well try the best available Plan B.

There isn't any indication from what you've told us (other than a desire to present it as such) that there was anything particularly wonderful about his guess.
Linda
You mean other than the fact that Tommy recovered completely after his father administered the belladonna? To give you one more quote from "An American Prophet" (at p. 7): "At his wife's insistence, and despite his great reservations, House ultimately agreed to prepare the belladonna. He justified his decision by saying that his son would surely die anyway if nothing were done. He and Dr. Jackson might be able to prolong the infant's life by a few hours, but they were powerless to keep him alive through the night."
 
Has belladonna ever been shown to alleviate convulsions?

Absolutely. It's all over the antique herbals. It's a powerful sedative and anti-spasmotic. It inhibits action of the involuntary muscles. Galen used it as an anesthetic and for gastrointestinal conditions. Belladonna

Of course if you inhibit your involuntary muscles too much you stop breathing and die, which is why belladonna is also used to kill people.

Here's what the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica had to say about it:

No less important than any of the above is the action of atropine on the cerebrum. This has long been a debated matter, but it may now be stated, with considerable certainty, that the higher centres are incoordinately stimulated, a state closely resembling that of delirium tremens being induced. In cases of poisoning the delirium may last for many hours or even days. Thereafter a more or less sleepy state supervenes, but it is not the case that atropine ever causes genuine coma. The stuporose condition is the result of exhaustion after the long period of cerebral excitement. It is to be noted that children, who are particularly susceptible to the influence of certain of the other potent alkaloids, such as morphine and strychnine, will take relatively large doses of atropine without ill-effect.

In other words, a relatively large, measured dose of belladonna will knock a child out for hours or even days.
 
Has belladonna ever been shown to alleviate convulsions?
As others pointed out, yes.

I re-read this thread, and maybe I'm slow, but I can't make out what your point with this thread is, Rodney? Would you mind (re)stating exactly what is your point/claim here?

Hans
 
Originally Posted by fls
Out of the hundreds of possible "Plan B's", how do you choose one? Out of the hundreds of possible "Plan B's", how do you avoid the ones that are harmful (keeping in mind that we don't know if death is inevitable)?
According to "An American Prophet", Cayce had given several accurate readings for Tommy's mother, and so she had trust in Cayce's treatment in her son's case. In general, I would argue that, if three medical doctors agree that a patient is going to die imminently and no other doctor contradicts them, you might as well try the best available Plan B.

You didn't answer my questions.

Originally Posted by fls
There isn't any indication from what you've told us (other than a desire to present it as such) that there was anything particularly wonderful about his guess.
You mean other than the fact that Tommy recovered completely after his father administered the belladonna?

Yes. It's not like people don't have a wide variety of outcomes from various illnesses, sometimes related to substances ingested and other treatments, sometimes not.

Linda
 
Absolutely. It's all over the antique herbals. It's a powerful sedative and anti-spasmotic. It inhibits action of the involuntary muscles. Galen used it as an anesthetic and for gastrointestinal conditions. Belladonna

Of course if you inhibit your involuntary muscles too much you stop breathing and die, which is why belladonna is also used to kill people.

Here's what the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica had to say about it:

In other words, a relatively large, measured dose of belladonna will knock a child out for hours or even days.
Thanks, it's very helpful to know what the contemporary medical wisdom was about belladonna when this event took place. The question is, however, how did Cayce manage to arrive at the correct treatment when the doctors were stumped? If Kirkpatrick's version of events is accurate, the doctors did not nod approvingly at Cayce's recommendation, but were shocked that he would prescribe such a dangerous medication.
 
As others pointed out, yes.

I re-read this thread, and maybe I'm slow, but I can't make out what your point with this thread is, Rodney? Would you mind (re)stating exactly what is your point/claim here?
Hans
I already partially answered your question in post #10 on this thread regarding the irony of reader Turgeon's comment. But I also try to never miss an opportunity to mention an alleged Cayce treatment that worked after the conventional medical wisdom had failed. ;)
 
You didn't answer my questions.
I thought my answer was clear, but to amplify: If the uncontradicted conventional medical wisdom is that a patient has only a very short time to live, there is likely little to lose in trying an alternative treatment. As to which alternative treatment, track record is the key. If someone has been accurate in the past about other medical conditions, that person's recommendation carries far more weight than someone who simply says: "Trust me, this will work."

Yes. It's not like people don't have a wide variety of outcomes from various illnesses, sometimes related to substances ingested and other treatments, sometimes not.

Linda
Okay, but if you had a patient that you were confident was on death's door and then (s)he suddenly recovered after an unconventional treatment, wouldn't you want to investigate in detail that treatment?
 
Thanks, it's very helpful to know what the contemporary medical wisdom was about belladonna when this event took place. The question is, however, how did Cayce manage to arrive at the correct treatment when the doctors were stumped? If Kirkpatrick's version of events is accurate, the doctors did not nod approvingly at Cayce's recommendation, but were shocked that he would prescribe such a dangerous medication.

By 1909 doctors were moving away from treatments like cocaine, opium, and some others I know of....I don't know what they thought of Belladonna, but as they knew how to extract atropine I suspect this was an outdated treatment by 1911.
 
There, Rodney, I've simplified it for you using only your own words.
The problem is that this incident and other similar ones regarding Cayce's successful treatments have been mentioned by several other authors. To my knowledge, no one has refuted them.
 
The problem is that this incident and other similar ones regarding Cayce's successful treatments have been mentioned by several other authors. To my knowledge, no one has refuted them.

Don't be shy, Rodney, bring them forth. Perhaps no one has refuted them because there is no evidence either way. Remember that the burden of proof is on the proponent of a phenomenon.
 
Okay, but if you had a patient that you were confident was on death's door and then (s)he suddenly recovered after an unconventional treatment, wouldn't you want to investigate in detail that treatment?
Did anyone investigate the treatment in detail after Tommy's recovery? All that has been presented so far is an anecdotal account of a single case.
 
Thanks, it's very helpful to know what the contemporary medical wisdom was about belladonna when this event took place. The question is, however, how did Cayce manage to arrive at the correct treatment...
Or at least what appears to have been a fairly conventional treatment from around that time, which he could have read about.
...when the doctors were stumped?
Perhaps they weren't very good doctors. Perhaps they were doctors of homoeopathy like the "Dr Ketchum" you tried to rely on as an authority in an earlier thread.
If Kirkpatrick's version of events is accurate, the doctors did not nod approvingly at Cayce's recommendation, but were shocked that he would prescribe such a dangerous medication.
What dosage did Cayce recommend? There seems to be no doubt that belladonna or atropine were used around the time we're talking about (see, for example the manual cited earlier by ChristineR, which was published only about a decade before), so presumably a dose regarded as appropriate wouldn't have been particularly shocking, even if they were of the opinion that it would be useless. If the dose recommended was so shocking, surely a responsible doctor would have made a note of it.
 
Ahh, now I found out how the multiquote thingy works....

As others pointed out, yes.

I re-read this thread, and maybe I'm slow, but I can't make out what your point with this thread is, Rodney? Would you mind (re)stating exactly what is your point/claim here?

Hans

I already partially answered your question in post #10 on this thread regarding the irony of reader Turgeon's comment. But I also try to never miss an opportunity to mention an alleged Cayce treatment that worked after the conventional medical wisdom had failed. ;)

Oh. So you have no claim. You just like to relate anecdotes. OK.

The problem is that this incident and other similar ones regarding Cayce's successful treatments have been mentioned by several other authors. To my knowledge, no one has refuted them.

Well, that is the thing with anecdotes. You can neither validate nor refute them.

What you can do is try to repeat them. Since this event allegedly took place about a century ago, there has been amble time to do that. So, can you point to subsequent research that could support the benefits of Belladonna in cases like this?

Hans
 
I thought my answer was clear, but to amplify: If the uncontradicted conventional medical wisdom is that a patient has only a very short time to live, there is likely little to lose in trying an alternative treatment.

As long as you take into consideration the level of certainty involved in "uncontradicted conventional medical wisdom". I don't see anything to indicate that "survival" was excluded as a reasonable possibility, since physicians of the day wouldn't have had access to the requisite knowledge or tools to make that determination. And we don't really know what their opinion was, as all we have are third-hand or more accounts of what they thought from highly invested lay-people - the type of accounts that are rarely correct, even under relatively mundane circumstances.

As to which alternative treatment, track record is the key. If someone has been accurate in the past about other medical conditions, that person's recommendation carries far more weight than someone who simply says: "Trust me, this will work."

I suspect you think that Cayce falls into the former, rather than the latter category. But your description is of a non-scientific approach to the issue, which is not trustworthy.

Okay, but if you had a patient that you were confident was on death's door and then (s)he suddenly recovered after an unconventional treatment, wouldn't you want to investigate in detail that treatment?

Yes, that is a fairly typical occurence in medicine. It should tell you something that his results did not create a revolution among those with expert knowledge and experience.

Linda
 
The problem is that this incident and other similar ones regarding Cayce's successful treatments have been mentioned by several other authors. To my knowledge, no one has refuted them.

Because the information is inadequate to demonstrate that there is even something there that requires refutation.

Linda
 
According to "An American Prophet", Cayce had given several accurate readings for Tommy's mother, and so she had trust in Cayce's treatment in her son's case. In general, I would argue that, if three medical doctors agree that a patient is going to die imminently and no other doctor contradicts them, you might as well try the best available Plan B.

You seem to have added extra details to the original story:
"no other doctor contradicts them"
"best available Plan B."
Before it was just three doctors agreeing that death was imminent. Now we have no doctor contradicting them. How many doctors did not contradict them? Who were they? Before we just had Plan B, now we have best available plan B. What were the other Plan Bs? How was the best Plan B determined?
 

Back
Top Bottom