Non-Homeopathic Belladonna

[Rodney]

Belladonna is hardly unheard of. It's been used for centuries.

I didn't say that. What I said was: "Cayce recommended a radical (presumably unheard of) non-homeopathic dose of belladonna."

 

[Rodney]

That's right. I would not try a remedy that someone pulled out of their @$$. Similarly, if I get cancer, I'm not going chasing rainbows in Mexico. I'm not going to have mistletoe injections. And I'm not going to drink Noni juice "just in case".

If you had been Tommy's father and the following is an accurate depiction of the facts, would your position still be the same?

"Although the three doctors disagreed about what treatment they should provide, all agreed that Tommy House Jr. had little or no chance of living through the night." "An American Prophet" at 4.

 

[fls]

If you had been Tommy's father and the following is an accurate depiction of the facts, would your position still be the same?

"Although the three doctors disagreed about what treatment they should provide, all agreed that Tommy House Jr. had little or no chance of living through the night." "An American Prophet" at 4.

Assuming any of that is true (a big "if"), taking into consideration the state of medicine at that time, it would be a fallacy to assume that because three doctors stated he had little or no chance of living through the night that his chance of living through the night was small. The ability to prognosticate under those circumstances would be poor. Even now, with vastly greater knowldege and tools at our disposal, negation of a (best) guess does not serve as proof of an effective intervention.

Or even considering the intervention was effective....are you suggesting that random experimentation causing untold harm is justified by occasionally guessing right?

Linda

 

[Mojo]

If you had been Tommy's father and the following is an accurate depiction of the facts, would your position still be the same?

"Although the three doctors disagreed about what treatment they should provide, all agreed that Tommy House Jr. had little or no chance of living through the night."

Even if it is accurate, it hardly justifies poisoning the poor little sod. Actually, the fact that he was strong enough to survive Cayce's murderous ministrations suggests that the doctors were wrong.

 

[ChristineR]

What I meant was that Belladonna was used in legitimate medical applications at least since Galen (c. 200 AD). Atropine was first isolated in 1893.

This is from a medical manual from 1898:

We employ minute doses of belladonna with confidence in congestive disorders. Throbbing, congestive, or nervo-congestive headaches are quickly relieved by it; or it may be a dull, heavy headache, with a drowsy feeling, as if, were it not for the pain, the patient would drop off to sleep. While it is a remedy for blood stasis, due to dilated capillaries in any part, its operation is perhaps more pronounced in impairment of circulation in the nerve-centers. In cerebral or spinal congestion, as evidenced by dullness and coma, it is the first remedy to be selected. In chronic brain diseases, with dizziness, drowsiness, and dull, heavy aching, with a sense of fullness in the head, its effects are pronounced, and when the dull eye, with dilated pupil and drowsiness, are present in threatened apoplexy this remedy should be selected.

In other words, Cayce either prescribed a useless homeopathic dose, or he prescribed--more or less at random--a fairly standard drug that was used to suppress the sort of symptoms the boy was experiencing. It wasn't unheard of and it isn't anything anyone with access to modern medicine would ever want to try.

 

[Blue Mountain]

Another problem I see with the story is the symptoms were described as life threatening ("on the verge of death, with convulsions every twenty minutes".) However, since the cause of the convulsions is not noted, it's difficult to state with confidence the situation was that dire.

I wonder if, in the 63 years that he lived, Tommy ever found out what may have been behind the medical crisis in his infancy?

 

[Rodney]

Assuming any of that is true (a big "if"), taking into consideration the state of medicine at that time, it would be a fallacy to assume that because three doctors stated he had little or no chance of living through the night that his chance of living through the night was small. The ability to prognosticate under those circumstances would be poor. Even now, with vastly greater knowldege and tools at our disposal, negation of a (best) guess does not serve as proof of an effective intervention.

Or even considering the intervention was effective....are you suggesting that random experimentation causing untold harm is justified by occasionally guessing right?

Linda

I'm suggesting when three medical doctors agree that a case is hopeless, it's time to go to Plan B, rather than wait for the patient to die. And, if Cayce was guessing, where did he come up with the information to arrive at his guess?

 

[Rodney]

Even if it is accurate, it hardly justifies poisoning the poor little sod. Actually, the fact that he was strong enough to survive Cayce's murderous ministrations suggests that the doctors were wrong.

So, if I understand your scenario: (1) Three medical doctors got it wrong when they thought Tommy's condition was hopeless and he wouldn't live through the night; (2) Cayce's treatment increased the probability that Tommy would die; and (3) Tommy promptly recovered because he was actually strong enough to survive Cayce's erroneous treatment.

 

[Mojo]

So, if I understand your scenario: (1) Three medical doctors got it wrong when they thought Tommy's condition was hopeless and he wouldn't live through the night;

Yes, because he lived through the night.

(2) Cayce's treatment increased the probability that Tommy would die;

Quite possibly, because Cayce was a charlatan.

and (3) Tommy promptly recovered because he was actually strong enough to survive Cayce's erroneous treatment.

A poison administered by someone who hadn't the faintest idea what he was doing failed to kill the child.

 

[BillyJoe]

If you had been Tommy's father and the following is an accurate depiction of the facts, would your position still be the same?

"Although the three doctors disagreed about what treatment they should provide, all agreed that Tommy House Jr. had little or no chance of living through the night." "An American Prophet" at 4.

If I was Tommy's father, if he really did have convulsions every 20 minutes, if three doctors really did say he would not survive the night, if they were not colluding in the prognosis, if they could give me a diagnosis, if they could give me reasons for their diagnosis, if Cayce could tell me why he thought the atropine would help in convulsions and not harm him instead.....

But lets bring this back to the present.
What are the possible causes of convulsions in a 3 month old?
Which of these causes can produce lethal convulsions?
Which of these can be cured be atropine?

It is entirely possible that the boy had a self limiting cause of convulsions that was compromised by atropine but that, in the end, by pure good fortune, it failed to kill him.
How do we know unless we have the answers to questions like the above?

In the mean time, if someone offers me $300 per week shark cartilege injections to cure my terminal bowel cancer without a shred of evidence, I'm going on a holiday instead.

What would you do?

 

[MRC_Hans]

You misunderstood my post. I was saying that, according to "An American Prophet", Cayce prescribed a non-homeopathic dose of belladonna. Specifically, at p. 6: " . . . the sleeping Cayce had prescribed an unusually high dose of a toxic form of deadly nightshade. Even if the peachtree poultice could somehow leach the poison out of the infant's system, administering such a large dose of belladonna to a child as small and weak as Tommy House Jr. was tantamount to murder."

However, according to "An American Prophet" at p.8, Cayce's treatment immediately cured Tommy. Regarding the diagnosis, the book states at p.4: "The infant had been suffering convulsions since his premature birth three months earlier. The convulsions had become so frequent that they now occurred every twenty minutes, leaving the helpless child too weak to nurse from his mother's bosom or to wrap his tiny hands around her fingers. Tommy House was on the verge of death from malnutrition and lack of sleep, a diagnosis confirmed by the child's father, a doctor, and by the family's two personal physicians, Dr. Jackson, a general practitioner in Hopkinsville, and Dr. Haggard, a pediatric specialist from Nashville who had been attending the child since birth."

This summary obviously does not answer all of your questions, but I think it's more than a garden variety anecdote, particularly when you consider that Tommy's father later ran Cayce's hospital in Virginia Beach, Virginia and Tommy went on to design medical equipment based on Cayce's readings.

It is an anecdote simply because it is a single case that cannot be verified. The diagnosis cannot be verified, the dosage cannot be verified. It cannot even be verified that the event ever happened. If you have ever (as I have) tried to verify events by reading different accounts of them, you will have been very surpised at how different such accounts can be, even on absolutely central points.

However, even if we take it on face value, it is relatively uninteresting. Belladonna is a powerful drug, and it might have some effect on convulsions. So it might have acted as described. We cannot, however, in any way extrapolate this account to other cases, not to mention other uses of belladonna.

Hans

 

[Mojo]

This summary obviously does not answer all of your questions, but I think it's more than a garden variety anecdote, particularly when you consider that Tommy's father later ran Cayce's hospital in Virginia Beach, Virginia...

Right: an anecdote related by someone who ran Cayce's hospital.

 

[BillyJoe]

Belladonna is a powerful drug, and it might have some effect on convulsions. So it might have acted as described.

It is difficult to see how. The problem is that a single dose of atropine allegedly stopped the child's convulsions permanently. Therefore is was used not as a symtomatic treatment but as a curative treatment.

 

[SomeGuy]

It is difficult to see how. The problem is that a single dose of atropine allegedly stopped the child's convulsions permanently. Therefore is was used not as a symtomatic treatment but as a curative treatment.

Humbug.

There are many symptoms newlyborns show that when temporarily repressed they will overgrow.

 

[BillyJoe]

Humbug.

This is your reply to my "It is difficult to see how" ???

There are many symptoms newlyborns show that when temporarily repressed they will overgrow.

So this three month infant is having convulsions every twenty minutes, he is given a dose of atropine, and he never has another convulsion again and you're saying he outgrew his convulsions in the space of 8 hours (or however long the effect of atropine lasts) ???
Don't know about you, SG, but I reckon they're claiming a cure.

BJ

 

[MRC_Hans]

It is difficult to see how. The problem is that a single dose of atropine allegedly stopped the child's convulsions permanently. Therefore is was used not as a symtomatic treatment but as a curative treatment.

Well, this is where the "grain of salt" evaluation comes in. Perhaps the infant was temporarily relaxed by the medicine, was able yo feed and rest and overcame whatever was the reason for the ailment. Permanently could mean days, weeks, or whatever. .. Or just that it survived. Notice I say perhaps. We really don't know what happend, or even if something happened. The core of the matter, however, is that the claim is not particularly extraordinary:

- An infant was seriously ill.
- Medicine was administered that might have improved the situation, might have worsened the situation, or might have had no effect.
- Despite expectations, the infant recovered.

Hans

 

[fls]

I'm suggesting when three medical doctors agree that a case is hopeless, it's time to go to Plan B, rather than wait for the patient to die.

Out of the hundreds of possible "Plan B's", how do you choose one? Out of the hundreds of possible "Plan B's", how do you avoid the ones that are harmful (keeping in mind that we don't know if death is inevitable)?

And, if Cayce was guessing, where did he come up with the information to arrive at his guess?

There isn't any indication from what you've told us (other than a desire to present it as such) that there was anything particularly wonderful about his guess.

Linda

 

[Mojo]

Out of the hundreds of possible "Plan B's", how do you choose one?

You decide that some ignoramus is an authority, and you do whatever he tells you.

 

[BillyJoe]

Out of the hundreds of possible "Plan B's", how do you choose one? Out of the hundreds of possible "Plan B's", how do you avoid the ones that are harmful (keeping in mind that we don't know if death is inevitable)?

This is what I tell people when they choose to take the Noni Juice. Why not shark cartilege injections? Why not apricot kernels? Why not the bark of the slippery elm? Why have you chosen to take this remedy amongst the thousands on offer? The reason is that the Noni Juice is the first quack remedy they came across.

 

[Rodney]

Belladonna is a powerful drug, and it might have some effect on convulsions. So it might have acted as described.

Has belladonna ever been shown to alleviate convulsions?