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[Garrette]

And Porter Goss and Bob Graham was said to have met with then ISI head General Mahmoud Ahmad. General Ahmad is purported to have wired $100,000 to Mahmoud Atta, the supposed ring leader of the hijackings.

Here's an interesting true story:

I have met, and personally briefed, both Colin Powell (when he was a Lieutenant General) and Ricardo Sanchez (when he was a Lieutenant General commanding Coalition forces in Iraq).

Surprsingly, I have no idea how either of them spent their time or their money outside the time I was briefing them.

 

[Arus808]

Now come on, clearly we can agree that 9/11 widows ties to the government are entirely different to that of people like Henry Kissinger.

you're missing the point.

a larger commission with no ties to the government?

and how would this new commission be paid? Through private companies? donations? How?

The truthers cry they want a new investigation, but unwilling to state how it will be funded. YOU do have to pay for things to get done. The laboratory fees alone would run in the millions.


and how would you determine who'd be on this commission?

Do you agree that we would need only Structural engineers, demolitionists, some people knowledgeable in aeronautics and and the technical reading of FDR data. Maybe someone in physics in relation to impacts by airplanes into steel structures?

Anyone who isn't qualified should not be on the commission.

'
Oh, wait, WE already paid a group to do that just that, who are independent of the government, save for getting funds to pay for their investigation. NIST.

The "hard questions" are not mine to ask but those of the family members who clearly feel that there questions havent been answered. Bill Doyle, in particular, has been pretty vocal about this.

Now, they can ask all the questions they want; much of which have been answered; but they just didn't like the answers given.

 

[Hyperviolet]

That's my point. Now you are changing the requirement from "no ties" to "different ties."

What is your standard?

I would suggest that being financially beholden to and dependent upon the government is a very strong tie. In all seriousness, I suggest it is stronger than Henry Kissinger's ties who is independently wealthy and need not rely upon the good graces of the government for his financial stability.


If you can't list the hard questions, then it does no good to say that the family members have them.

Are you suggesting that only those who lost loved ones on 9/11 are capable of coming up with the hard (read "pertinent") questions?

How about me? I lost acquaintenances in the Pentagon on 9/11.

Garrette, are you sayin that Henry Kissenger would be a less biased source to investigate the Bush administration than a 9/11 family member? If so, then we disagree on this point.

I don't have access to their list of questions - but they have stated that the questions they presented were not answered fully and in some cases, not answered at all. I don't believe the family members are lying here and trust their word that they still have unanswered questions. My ability to recite their chosen questions regarding the deaths of the loved ones is irrelevant in my eyes.

EDIT : I am sorry to here of the loss of your friends, truly.

 

[Donal]

"Hard" questions don't matter. Relevent questions do.

The list of questions has been addressed.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Right Angle

Geometry has no relevance on the fact that both you and SCG could be sock-puppets of Pdoh at the same time; thus the necessity of pointing that your suggestion that if you were Pdoh that neither SCG nor anyone else could be, is a logical fallacy; specifically that of the false dilemma (aka false choice fallacy).

 

[Arus808]

Garrette, are you sayin that Henry Kissenger would be a less biased source to investigate the Bush administration than a 9/11 family member? If so, then we disagree on this point.

again YOU are missing the point

Ties or no ties, whoever does the investigations, will have their findings TESTED and of course reviewed by peers. So if they come out and state that the bowel movemtns of cows were the reason the towers came down, and have provided "work" to back up that claim based on evidence, that claim simply isn't going to be taken at face value. IT will be reviewed, and if the reviewers find the claim to be horse patootey, then that claim will be thrown out.

Someone's tie or relation has no bearing on scientific findings.

If you want to get down to semantics, we are all agents/affiliated with government as long as we are paying taxes and getting a refund every year; or your getting a payment from SS every month.

I don't have access to their list of questions - but they have stated that the questions they presented were not answered fully and in some cases, not answered at all.

Maybe they just dont understand the answers?
Maybe they just dont want to accept the answers?
and those they couldn't answer, maybe there was no answer to give?

 

[Garrette]

Garrette, are you sayin that Henry Kissenger would be a less biased source to investigate the Bush administration than a 9/11 family member?

I'm saying I have no idea, but that the a priori assumption that it would be the other way around is fallacious.

I also think it crucial that you recognize what I am pointing out: You have not defined "no ties." You have in fact changed it to "different ties," but now you haven't defined what that means.

I don't have access to their list of questions - but they have stated that the questions they presented were not answered fully and in some cases, not answered at all. I don't believe the family members are lying here and trust their word that they still have unanswered questions. My ability to recite their chosen questions regarding the deaths of the loved ones is irrelevant in my eyes.

I agree, but a pointer to them would be welcome. As would an acknowledgment that not all questions formulated, even those formulated by bereaved family members, are pertinent to discovering the truth.

EDIT : I am sorry to here of the loss of your friends, truly.

Thank you. I appreciate it, but it isn't necessary. I used "acquaintenances" because they were really no more than that. I do, however, feel their loss in the same fashion I feel the loss of soldiers I do not know in Iraq.

 

[Augustine]

The "hard questions" are not mine to ask but those of the family members who clearly feel that there questions havent been answered. Bill Doyle, in particular, has been pretty vocal about this.

Do you honestly believe that Bill Doyle is either impartial or objective, given that he has already stated he believes the government is complicit prior to having any of his "questions" answered?

 

[Garrette]

Do you honestly believe that Bill Doyle is either impartial or objective, given that he has already stated he believes the government is complicit prior to having any of his "questions" answered?

Hyperviolet, this is a crucial question that can help in your analysis.

If you are certain of bias in a government-led investigation and therefore want a non-government investigation, you must--to be consistent and impartial--ensure the same non-bias in the non-government investigators. Those who, like Bill Doyle, arrive at their conclusions prior to conducting the investigation, are most certainly not unbiased.

---

To approach it from a different tack, Hyper:

In the world of those discussing 9/11, you are the government and we are the truthers. I am the family member asking you the hard questions that those on your side (those like Bill Doyle and Dylan Avery) won't ask because, well, because they're on your side. (That's how the thinking goes, right?)

Only, I, the one who has lost so much (in emotional investment if nothing else) to what I see as unjustified attacks on my trust in NIST and the 9/11 Commission, have the standing to conduct the investigation properly and to ask the hard questions.

So here they are:

1. How do you define "different ties" to the government?

2. What level of "ties" are acceptable?

3. What are the hard questions?

4. What are your specific objections to either the NIST report or the 9/11 Commission report?

 

[RAMS]

Hello Horatius!

I actually havent heard of "The Mark Of Woo" haha. I hope it isnt deadly!
My position on WTC 7 is not that is was a controlled demolition. But that, it interests me and i am keen to learn more on the topic. I shall remain on the fence till i read the NIST final report.


Thank you

Welcome here.

This is wise on the wait. I am also.

Confirmation should be conclusive for impact debris damage, and fire. But we will see.

RAMS

 

[Augustine]

Hyperviolet, the thing that troubles me is you have named only THREE things that could convince you it wasn't LIHOP or MIHOP - some vague allusions to "funding", "ISI", and "hard questions". NOTHING concrete at all. THEN on top of that, in order to convince you, you want a special commission that is absolutely completely impractical and has ZERO chance of occurring in reality. To me, it seems as if you WANT to believe in LIHOP or MIHOP and thus have set this ridiculous bar for a commission while being incredibly vague as to your objections, or things which may point to LIHOP or MIHOP (some of which don't even do that IMO).

 

[Architect]

To me, it seems as if you WANT to believe in LIHOP or MIHOP and thus have set this ridiculous bar for a commission while being incredibly vague as to your objections, or things which may point to LIHOP or MIHOP (some of which don't even do that IMO).

To me, that sums up 95% of the (ahem) Truth Movement.

 

[Calcas]

I know it's early and that this is no way to treat a new member, so I apologize in advance if I am wrong, but I would like to take this opportunity to voice my "gut" feeling of , and dedicate it to P'Doh.

25 posts in less than 5 hours? While I also like to give people the benefit of the doubt, I have to agree with Minadin.

 

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Geometry has no relevance on the fact that both you and SCG could be sock-puppets of Pdoh at the same time;

We could be, but that would mean that we conspired together. Which would be a CT, and therefore inherently false.

 

[skepticalcriticalguy]

(That was a joke, btw)

 

[Hyperviolet]

Hyperviolet, the thing that troubles me is you have named only THREE things that could convince you it wasn't LIHOP or MIHOP - some vague allusions to "funding", "ISI", and "hard questions". NOTHING concrete at all. THEN on top of that, in order to convince you, you want a special commission that is absolutely completely impractical and has ZERO chance of occurring in reality. To me, it seems as if you WANT to believe in LIHOP or MIHOP and thus have set this ridiculous bar for a commission while being incredibly vague as to your objections, or things which may point to LIHOP or MIHOP (some of which don't even do that IMO).

Well Augustine, i am sorry that troubles you. I named them off the top of my head. Maybe there really is more that will convince me (maybe it even lies here on this board??) but i can tell you that although i am not sold on the conspiracy of Missile Hit the Pentagon, United 93 went to Cleveland and certainly not the laughable No Planes or Space Beams i am equally not convinced that the official account is the complete narrative of what happened that day. At least that is my feelin upon typing this message. I can absolutely assure you i dont want to believe in a LIHOP or a MIHOP, however. I cant imagine anything more horrifying.

 

[WildCat]

We could be, but that would mean that we conspired together. Which would be a CT, and therefore inherently false.

Deleted, didn't get the joke.

 

[Hyperviolet]

25 posts in less than 5 hours? While I also like to give people the benefit of the doubt, I have to agree with Minadin.

I am sorry you doubt my sincerity, Calcas. However, i really have no way to prove to you that i am not P'Doh unless you get the Admin to do an IP check or something?
Admittedley, my post count is high for the brief time i've been part of the JREF community but that is mainly due to what TAM referred to as the 'JREF bomb.' That is, the members questioning the new guy. Mostly my posts are just answering questionings given to me and in some cases i havent even replied to some because there is simply too much to answer already! Some other posts are just returning the kind welcome given to me. On that note - RAMS, thank you for the welcome!

Expect my post count to slow after this thread, and i guess only through time you shall see that i am sincere in my skepticism.

 

[Augustine]

Well Augustine, i am sorry that troubles you. I named them off the top of my head. Maybe there really is more that will convince me (maybe it even lies here on this board??) but i can tell you that although i am not sold on the conspiracy of Missile Hit the Pentagon, United 93 went to Cleveland and certainly not the laughable No Planes or Space Beams i am equally not convinced that the official account is the complete narrative of what happened that day. At least that is my feelin upon typing this message. I can absolutely assure you i dont want to believe in a LIHOP or a MIHOP, however. I cant imagine anything more horrifying.

Okay, so long as you realize that it is a "feeling", not a "conclusion". No one can convince another person of anything if that person's belief is based solely on "feelings" and not evidence. So, look around, I hope you find what you are looking for, if you have anything concrete to discuss and are willing to listen to reason (or are open to it), just ask.

 

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Admittedley, my post count is high for the brief time i've been part of the JREF community but that is mainly due to what TAM referred to as the 'JREF bomb.' That is, the members questioning the new guy. Mostly my posts are just answering questionings given to me and in some cases i havent even replied to some because there is simply too much to answer already! Some other posts are just returning the kind welcome given to me. On that note - RAMS, thank you for the welcome!

So these thugs are calling you out for posting too many times your first day? Bunch of paranoids.

I think I had that many posts my first day too, just asking questions, and then asking what JAQing off is, and inquiring what a sock puppet is, and who P'doh is. It gets real old; every new member goes through it.