Are you calling all those pioneers and settlers lazy? I mean they did try to annihilate the natives, what with all the poisoned wells, tainted flour, hunting parties and what not. Is it their fault that smallpox was so much better at killing? Ahh good old British Imperialism, those were the days!
Links Between Holocaust Denial/Revisionism and 9-11 "Truthers"
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Are you calling all those pioneers and settlers lazy? I mean they did try to annihilate the natives, what with all the poisoned wells, tainted flour, hunting parties and what not. Is it their fault that smallpox was so much better at killing? Ahh good old British Imperialism, those were the days!
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
me thinks this thread has deviated into the standard "What indeed is antisemitism"...
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
SLOB
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
SLOB
William Rea
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I didn't say the establishment of Israel was any more or less abhorrent than the establishment of any other country. The only thing I would say is that many new countries were established using tools not dissimilar to those used by Israel. That doesn't say that the Zionists were any more or less demonic than any other founders, just that they don't deserve any special reverence or immunity from criticism that we would expect to be acceptable for any other instance.
The resources and support that have been given to Israel to establish their country far outweigh those of any other country in the immediate region. It is not surprising that a prosperous liberal middle class that concerns itself with Arab welfare has developed to keep the extremist elements in check.
I did say that I oppose the original partition of the Territory of Palestine. It served no real purpose except to placate a very active and sometimes violent Zionist movement and to relieve some of the liberal guilt sincerely felt after WW2. The Jewish, Christian and Muslim people under British administration lived together with few problems prior to partition.
Indeed, it would be anti-Semitic to unfairly attribute what are considered negative characterisitics to the Judaic Semitic peoples (not forgetting that Arabs are Semitic people). Just as it would be patronising to suggest that they are immune from the same human traits that lead to the politicking that drives most other countries.
I wouldn't ever suggest that countries like mine or the Germans or French or Canadians or the USA or Cuba or China are above lying to preserve national security. That would just be naive.
William Rea
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"The yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the Land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been the cornerstone of Jewish religious life since the Jewish exile from the land two thousand years ago, and is embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture."
My interest is largely political but since you raised the topic it is very interesting. Can any Jewish people on here give any direct quotes from the Jewish scriptures to reinforce this.
My understanding is that modern Zionism was initially motivated by a secular socialist Jewish agenda that had very little to do with religion. It is also my understanding that God dispersed the Jews throughout the world only to return to Zion when the true Messiah returned.
My interest is largely political but since you raised the topic it is very interesting. Can any Jewish people on here give any direct quotes from the Jewish scriptures to reinforce this.
My understanding is that modern Zionism was initially motivated by a secular socialist Jewish agenda that had very little to do with religion. It is also my understanding that God dispersed the Jews throughout the world only to return to Zion when the true Messiah returned.
william, are you suggesting that the jews WANT to be in perpetual exile?
it is indeed part of our religion that we were despersed due to God's punishment...and that when the messiah returns he will bring back the exiles from the 4 corners of the globe. read Isaiah
but anti-semitism, pogroms, persecutions, exiles, are not fantasies. they are the real life events of the jewish people. theodore hertzl was not the first person to believe that it is DANGEROUS to put the existance of the jewish people in the hands of the good will of non-jews. does it really take a genius to see why the jews might need their own seperate state..inorder to survive? and the fact that it is in palestine...where a jewish state once existed...seems like the most logical location no?
the early zionists were indeed socialists...that was their political leaning..and so what. but their goal was to end 2,000 years of suffering. who can blaim them.
there have been many liberation movemants throughout the world...but only the jew's is accused of demonic origins, plans of world domination, and evil-sinister plots. why is that?
it is indeed part of our religion that we were despersed due to God's punishment...and that when the messiah returns he will bring back the exiles from the 4 corners of the globe. read Isaiah
but anti-semitism, pogroms, persecutions, exiles, are not fantasies. they are the real life events of the jewish people. theodore hertzl was not the first person to believe that it is DANGEROUS to put the existance of the jewish people in the hands of the good will of non-jews. does it really take a genius to see why the jews might need their own seperate state..inorder to survive? and the fact that it is in palestine...where a jewish state once existed...seems like the most logical location no?
the early zionists were indeed socialists...that was their political leaning..and so what. but their goal was to end 2,000 years of suffering. who can blaim them.
there have been many liberation movemants throughout the world...but only the jew's is accused of demonic origins, plans of world domination, and evil-sinister plots. why is that?
Poetry Hound
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There was a case a few years ago when a city official in a major U.S. city used the word "niggardly" in a city meeting at which some African Americans were present. The African Americans took offense at the word, and even though many people explained that it is a legitimate (though somewhat obscure) English word (essentially meaning "miserly" - the official had been talking about being tightfisted with the city budget), they remained offended and were suspicious about why the official chose to use that particular word. I can't remember if the official was reassigned or he quit. But it was a big deal in the news for awhile.
Moral: It's probably best not to say you're anti-Zionist unless you're in a discussion about Israeli history, and even then it's a pretty charged word. Too many people use the term as code for anti-Jewish. I've seen 911 "truthers" say zionists were involved in 911, apparently believing they have deniability if someone accuses them of being anti-Semitic.
Moral: It's probably best not to say you're anti-Zionist unless you're in a discussion about Israeli history, and even then it's a pretty charged word. Too many people use the term as code for anti-Jewish. I've seen 911 "truthers" say zionists were involved in 911, apparently believing they have deniability if someone accuses them of being anti-Semitic.
delphi_ote
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If you'd like a conversation more at your own level on this subject, I highly recommend posting your question in a new thread in the Politics and Current Events section of the forum.
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
I just noticed that an rather well known revisionist, Haldan, is a swedish national.
Funny thing is, the huge 911 thread that had me interested in the 911-world, was started by a nym "Julius Streicher" (!) at sept 11, 2001 17:20 (GMT - 2 I guess), who I just discovered was the same guy, Haldan.
He wrote (just hours after 911):
/SLOB
Funny thing is, the huge 911 thread that had me interested in the 911-world, was started by a nym "Julius Streicher" (!) at sept 11, 2001 17:20 (GMT - 2 I guess), who I just discovered was the same guy, Haldan.
He wrote (just hours after 911):
The two conspiracies met early...
/SLOB
I think it was one of the first refuges this lot took.
But they really are pumping this meme for all its worth recently, have a listen to this show I came across recently from someone called 'Dave Emory' ... fascist hunter ...
Anti-fascist researcher Dave Emory (spelled E-M-O-R-Y) goes into all the hidden truths and details about evil men and their trade practices.
February 20, 2007: FTR #584 "Rewriting History" | Listen (RealAudio) | Listen (MP3 (128K))
http://wfmu.org/playlists/DX
A classic example of left gate-keeping don't you think?
One minute he's an anti-establishment 'conspiracy theorist' - look at his previous shows, and the next he's laying the groundwork to lock everyone up who questions 911. Oh good boy Dave, nice one.
And it's spelled E-M-O-R-Y in case you didn't catch it the first time.
They met on the day according to mainstream media, has anyone mentioned the dancing Israeli's or Carl Camerons Fox News report about the hundreds of Israeli spies rounded up and expelled in the weeks after 911?
Here's some wag's artistic rendition of the scene, but other details include 'posing in front of the burning WTC, smiling and flicking a lighter', ouch, nasty ...
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
Was that reported in "mainstream media", or quoted? And Haldan was happy that "The home of the Jews" had fallen. Its at least not obivious how that works with "Israelis are behind it".
Haldans post is just the ordinary mixup of Israel and jews in general. But my point wasn't that antisemites think that 911 was the work of ZOG, Illuminati or even Israel. My point was that Haldan is both a very active Holocaust denier, as well as a truther. In him, and his starting of that thread I mention, Denial and "Truthism" met as early as at the day of the attack.
/S
It was reported in mainstream media.
I'm quite frankly shocked that you are commenting on an issue that you are so ill-informed about.
pdoh are you sure? Where do you find all this spam stuff and why are you hot linking, you not suppose to do that.
milesalpha
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Just for accuracy, the Canadians went to no lengths to destroy any native population. You are thinking of the British. I would suggest you visit some of the Alberta and BC reservations and explain to me how natives who drive brand new trucks are living in "squalor". You could also look at some of the recent multi-million dollar settlements with natives, particularly in BC. If they still live in squalor it has little to do with Canadians.
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
I wasn't commenting on "The dancing Israelis", you were. Hence I asked you to clarify but you didn't really provide an answer. And you were rude in the process. Figures.
/S
Panoply_Prefect
Graduate Poster
As I understand it "mainstream media" reported that arab-looking men were behaving weird ("high-fiveing", "smiling", "dancing"). This later changed to "israeli" when it was established that were their nationality.
The fact that media reported on this isn't that extraordinary - a women reported them to the police and thus media reported that. They didnt invent the accusation themselves.
/S
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Who are you talking to, what spam, and what hotlink?
William Rea
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There are a lot of last refuges and strawmen used on here, even by some of the contributors you might think are above such tactics. There are also what appear to be organised "Bots" (people of lower intelligence that are useful for destroying threads when they start swinging against the orthodox line. I used to call them Baboons but felt that was an insult to Baboons because they at least are sentient beings).
As I stated before, I don't give a rat's arse about your "Truth Movement" it doesn't bother me one way or another. What really gets me is lazy arguing which unfortunately is prevalent on here.
I was asked by Paradalis why I am defensive of the "Truth Movement". Actually I'm not, it's just that the orthodoxy is so skewed on here that even my neutral comments appear left field.
Interestingly, against all my instincts I have just joined the Loose Change Forum to ask a research question. It's going to be really interesting to see if they show similar behavioural patterns as the JREFers. I am also wondering if they will have the same assumed superiority complex.
I'll report back in 3 months.
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William Rea
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Of course it's the British!