Moderated Dowsing By Edge

edge said:
Tricky, are you and Sezme still up for the test if it happens?
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I could be, if you and the JREF hammer out the details.

edge said:
They haven't contacted me yet and that's good, the weather is still a factor and as soon as it's clear enough I will test myself on that particular bank.
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Remember when you are testing yourself that even for a single blind test, you must have at least one other person. The dowser must not know where the target is located.

edge said:
I may end it before anyone spends any money to do this.
But I may also say bring it on, and at that point you'll know that I have the numbers of correct hits to proceed.
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Fair enough.

edge said:
Finding a friend up there to spend the time is difficult as they are pressed for cash in that town.
The overall test can last up to three hours.
I’m calling people today to see if I can get a commitment on that.
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For your self-test, you don't absolutely have to have a neutral person, as long as you are being completely honest with yourself. Green Eyes could be the other person.

There might be a way you can even do a kind of test by yourself, but again, it requires scrupulous self-honesty. I think you can to that.

  • Take ten identical, opaque plastic or other non-breakable containers with tight-fitting caps. (Brightly colored, if possible.)
  • Into one container, put your target.
  • Into the other nine, put something of about the same weight and density. A stone from the surrounding area would be good since it would not contain anything that would give a false result.
  • Put the caps on the containers and place them in a group on an open sheet, like a, tray, a pizza pan or a board.
  • Stand on one edge of the testing area with your back to it and the tray of containers in your hands.
  • In one move, fling the tray backwards, throwing all the containers in the air behind you such that they all land some distance apart. (You may have to practice this to get a good spread.)
  • Turn around and locate the containers on the ground (Now you know why I suggest brightly colored or fluorescent).
  • Dowse to find the one container that contains the target.
  • After you have opened one and only one container, record the results.
  • Reseal the one container (make sure it looks exactly the same as the other containers) and repeat the test exactly as you did before. Try not to pay attention to any features (such as weight) that would key you as to which container has the target.
  • DO NOT dowse until you find the correct container. You must have exactly one result per test.
For a lot of reasons that should be obvious, this cannot be the protocol for the formal test, but if you can do this test, trying to make sure that you do not accidentally discover a pattern that is unrelated to dowsing and trying to make sure that you do it exactly the same way every time, you should be able to get a reasonable approximation of a blind test.

edge said:
I already have shown it to you and it is simple to understand.
I will post anything that they want to work out on here or the other thread about the applications.
It'll probably be about our timing, you, Sezme and myself to actually run the test.
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Well, February is already gone. March is roaring by. I'm going to be out of pocket at the end of April to the beginning of May. But this is a moot point until you and the JREF agree on a protocol. You might try e-mailing them to ask them when they will be getting back to you.

edge said:
Here it is. Tricky's comments in red.

So I will do a hidden container test like at the office except on the bank on the creek. How will you decide the placement of the targets? Will they be equally spaced? (ed. Ah, I see you address this in your "addendum".)

The difference is the target will be on the ground hidden by the container but most likely the lids of the containers that I already have. I suspect you will need sealable containers since the uneven ground might allow visual contact with the target. Opaque plastic bowls or something like that should do


The target will be an 1885 silver dollar you know the large ones. That's fine.


The dowsing rods or the attractors are radio antennas that are L rods. Fine.

Totally insulated from my body. I don't know what this means. Just wearing gloves, or will you be "insulating" from visual contact as well?

I will dowse ten containers ten times in each category open and close and I will say that I will get 60% correct. You left out lots of steps here, such as how the targets are randomized, how the double-blinding is done, how the results are recorded and things like what safeguards you will take against "sensory leakage" (getting hints from non-dowsing things).

Then the next test that will be the formal I will repeat the process. Under the new challenge rules, there is no "formal" test. There is just one open and one closed test. You have less than three weeks to get in under the old rules, and I suspect this won't be doable. The only difference (speaking only for my understanding. I am not a JREF spokesman) is that the closed test is much more extensive. I suspect that ten tests will not be enough because the chances of success by random chance are too high, but again, that is something you and the JREF will have to hammer out.

I will say that I will get 60% correct. That should be more than enough provided you have a sufficient number of tests.

Then the next test that will be the formal I will repeat the process. See above. Nobody ever got past the preliminary, so it was eliminated to go straight to the "formal" which just means "better control". Since this test is for a million dollars, you can be pretty darn sure the JREF will insist on lots of control.


I will be allowed two days for those tests so that I may be able to stop and rest when I feel the need to or continue the next day for the formal test. I don't know if that will be acceptable or not. For control purposes, you need to keep everything the same. If you require two days for the test you will probably have to do another open test on the second day. Honestly, I cannot see why this test would exhaust you at all. It should take only a few hours.


This test will occur when I think it is reasonably warm enough to stay on the bank of the creek long enough to get one set of testing done. That could be as soon as Feb. or March. Unlikely. If you aren't able to get this done before April, you will have to use the new challenge rules, which will be extremely difficult. You will have to get media coverage and also you will have to have an endorsement by someone of an academic nature. (See the link for more info).


It also depends on the volunteers’ scheduling and mine.
We can use cell phones to communicate when one team is ready to leave the test area and one team with myself is ready to go to the testing area.
Again, more specifics will be needed as to when and where the targets are placed and by whom.

And the addendum,
They can’t be moved because the lids will be placed in a small hole ten of them. If you use sealed containers, the containers can be easily moved from hole to hole. You haven't indicated whether or not the holes will be covered. In a properly conducted test, all ten of the containers will be moved after each test and the person moving them won't know which container has the target in it, lest he unintentionally leave subtle hints. This is the "sensory leakage" I was talking about.

One of them will be hiding the dollar or what ever target I use such as a nugget ect. The others will need to have an item of similar weight in them. There should be no way that the person placing the targets can tell which container has the actual target in it.


They will be in a straight line, and next to the holes will be a 2x12 board approximately 10 or 20 feet long so that all that walk there can’t disturb the ground.
They can however if they want change or lift each target lid to re-disturb the area around each of the holes slightly so that they are changed some what on each of my tries so there is a change to each of the holes or spots.
In this way I won’t be able to tell anything that is noticeable with one change of the coin from spot to spot. That is why all targets need to be placed between each test. Even if you don't disturb the ground, there might be tracks, etc. If all ten places are "disturbed" by a person who doesn't know which place contains the target, then this possibility of him giving hints is eliminated.
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edge said:
After the tests we can have a little party if the participants wish.
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Sounds like fun.

edge said:
How’s that? It’s good I think.
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It still needs a lot of work.
 
Hi, edge --

Make sure you read Tricky's questions, in red. He's pointing out, in essence, that your proposed protocol is not detailed enough. Remember my post about peanut butter & jelly instructions?

Please re-write the protocol, but this time imagine the following scenario:

you're writing for someone in another country. That person will be recreating your test, and someone will be taping it. The goal is to have video tapes of you and this person to look exactly the same.

So you have to be absolutely, nauseatingly detailed about it.
 
I had this written by 3:00 yesterday but some one, I found out from my server, dug a hole down in L.A. and severed a major line and knocked out the connection to the intranet, that’s 700 miles or so from here.
It is a reminder of how dependent we are on 100-year-old technology, electric and phones.

I was reminded on a cold day about four days ago about this very thing when the power went out for about 6 hours.
Not only in this town but the whole county was down.
No heat, no TV, no computer, no lights, we are all so vulnerable, on the large scale.
This is the very reason I’m looking into dowsing and I’ll stop here.


The containers never get moved that's how it worked in the office.

In the field there will be ten holes in the ground instead of containers.
Each hole needs only be 6x6 inches.
The metal that I use for the target must be grounded.
Each hole will have a small lid in it to cover the bottom of the empty hole and the one with the target in it.
The coin is the only thing moving on each try that I make, they the team hiding the coin in the spot produced by a number generator will be placed and recorded by the first team one person from JREF and one from my team.

Then the second team, that's one person from JREF and I, will go to the test area and I will do my thing.
We can hide the whole test area with a tarp and the board that we walk on can be marked 1 through 10 it will give me an Idea where the spots are and what number I should call out for the location.
I won't be able to see the lids or the ground.
The ground won’t be disturbed because we are walking on a 2x12 whatever length I need to span the test area parallel to the holes that we dug. The holes will also be in a straight line with about a four-foot separation between each of the holes.
x…….x………..x……..….x…….….x……….x……….x………...x….….…x……….x
1!!!!!2!!!!!!!!3!!!!!!!!!!4!!!!!!!!5!!!!!!!6!!!!!!!7!!!!!!!!!8!!!!!!!!9!!!!!!!10!!!

No sensory leaks.
X marks the holes and the “!” is the board with corresponding numbers.
The Xs get covered by a tarp. One long tarp.
I don't want to know anything about hits or misses till the test is over.

It's really pretty simple.
I had more of your red print answered but lost it when the servers’ lines were severed, I’ll try to answer them in the next hour.
 
Honestly, I cannot see why this test would exhaust you at all. It should take only a few hours.
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This is what I know, It’s draining, If I say more than that, for you it is unproven theory.

The hole is the container, the lid is the cover.
The tarp covers all of the holes and surrounding dirt.
If I choose the right spot I should get 90% or so, even 100%.
By dumbing down the sensitivity of the instruments the "L rods",
and grounding the target I should be able to prove that dowsing works.

I did 110% correct hits in winning spots and 70% or 80% correct hits in loser spots dredging.
The thing that threw me off on the losing spots were a chocker cable and a piece of a fender together in one spot this lead me to believe there was a pocket and a stringer there.
Then there was what I thought might be another pocket but was a load of lead, 5 ounces of lead at which point I thought I might be wrong about those spots and possibly they were winners, In other words I changed my mind and was hoping they were winners.
So my first instincts were right. So I didn't get 100 % on the loser spots, only 80%.


I hope this is clear enough to you.
 
Jackalgirl
You are right,
So you have to be absolutely, nauseatingly detailed about it.
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It's so simple when you mine, no one knows till you dig up the spot.
In this way my friends, that mined with me seen and stuck with me.

They know now exactly what I know, that when mining it works but they have tested me in the past and think it may not be provable when moving a target around on the ground.
Except for I have gone one step further like I said on my previous post with the L rods and grounding of the target.

One more thing I think is important, is that a copper coil with A CHARGE RUNING THROUGH IT MIGHT BE THE BEST TARGET.
It might over ride everything that's near it in the ground.
A target like that would be difficult to use in the field, but not near housing.
That will require more experimenting on my part and some way to power a coil.
 
Is the JREF running scared?
How long is it now since edge first put in his application?
(Unless anyone can refute that - no, I'm sure it's been confirmed.)
No reply of any kind to date.
(Unless anyone can refute that.)
Are they stalling till after April Ist?

Do they not realise that they must, in all good conscience, test anyone who has applied before April 1st?

Can someone please explain the silence?
Jeff?

thanks,
BillyJoe
 
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Is the JREF running scared?
How long is it now since edge first put in his application?
(Unless anyone can refute that - no, I'm sure it's been confirmed.)
No reply of any kind to date.
(Unless anyone can refute that.)
Are they stalling till after April Ist?

Do they not realise that they must, in all good conscience, test anyone who has applied before April 1st?

Can someone please explain the silence?
Jeff?

thanks,
BillyJoe
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I just wrote Jeff a letter and explaned it to him.
He should read this post or maybe they have.
I need a couple of days anyway let see what he says.

Here's the letter.

Hey Jeff,
This is Edge can you tell me the status of my application for the challenge?
If my out line of the protocols are not sufficient you can go to the last page of my post and read or read the whole thing and I think it's pretty much self explanatory.

Also tricky and Sezme are willing to do the tests for you if you choose them to be your representatives.

Also note that weather is a factor as I need to run one more set of tests myself, which means simply if I can’t prove that dowsing will give the results I’m looking for that I may say forget it or I may say bring it on.
This Tuesday I will know for sure.
Mike Guska.
 
Billy Joe if it wasn't for this test i ran last year I would have said screw it.

I did 110% correct hits in winning spots and 70% or 80% correct hits in loser spots dredging.
The thing that threw me off on the losing spots were a chocker cable and a piece of a fender together in one spot this lead me to believe there was a pocket and a stringer there.
Then there was what I thought might be another pocket but was a load of lead, 5 ounces of lead at which point I thought I might be wrong about those spots and possibly they were winners, In other words I changed my mind and was hoping they were winners.
So my first instincts were right. So I didn't get 100 % on the loser spots, only 80%.

This kept me going. :) And the fact that you brainiacs gave me several good Ideas, so you will get credit too, If I win.

11 good hits,One was on a completly different property and I went right to it, that was # 11.
 
edge said:
...7 out of ten is 70% correct 11 out of 11 is 110%. get it?
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Edge, that's not correct. Here is how to calculate percentages:

number of correct guesses divided by the total number of tries times 100 = percentage

So:

7 / 7 = .70 x 100 = 70 = 70%

You can't go over 100% unless you have more correct guesses than tries, which isn't logical at all in your setup. Eleven correct guesses out of eleven tries means you got them all right; i.e., your accuracy is 100%.

Another example: if you got 7 out of 11 correct, you'd have:

7 / 11 = .6363636363... x 100 = 63.6363...% (or, rounded up, 64%).
 
It's alright guys...

I told edge to write about that 110%. :D
He said you wouldn't fall for it, but I told him you were sure to.
Sorry, edge, seems you're wrong after all.

:D
 
It's all in the wording.
Each test consists of ten tries.
There were two types ten of non producers and 11 of producing, which means I had 9 more to do to finish the second set of producers. 100 +10=110% correct hits.

I’m on a streak. If there are only 7 tries and you get 7/7 that’s 100%….
 
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