The Bible is 100% true and to be read literally

Best not to assume anything. The universe has repeatedly shown us that physical reality is far stranger than most of us have imagined. Glorious photos of bizarre things in the universe brought to you courtesy of HST... a scientific instrument.

[sidebar]When I first read this, I thought you were refering to Hunter S. Thompson. I.e. that the universe is some form of Gonzo engineeing. Then I saw the phrase after the ellipses. It took a second to get out of the Hunter mindset to realize that you really meant the Hubble Space Telescope.

I think I like my initial read, really. It would explain a lot if Hunter was the one that put this place into motion.[/sidebar]
 
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I prefer quoting from movies, myself. God can be such a bore at parties.

Ordinarily science is limited to talking about the physical world

I know of no other world than the physical one.

but the real world is physical-plus-spiritual integrated together

Evidence, please.

We actually have much additional information about the universe which has been given to us by revelation from God

Only if we assume the bibble is actually true. Without such an assumption, your claim is false.

This requires faith so read the other side of the coin.

A coin with only one side is no coin at all.

Barry Setterfield suggests constant energy from the vacuum flows into energy atom I would surmise that is a manifestation of God's sustaining power input coming, as it were, "from the other side of the vacuum."

We can speculate until the moon turns into cheese, but it doesn't do squat for reality. See my signature.
 
The advantage to a believer is the testing per say of what is still viable, like does prayer work for a believer.

Prayer works exactly like magnet healing or homeopathy: placebo.

Skeptics don’t have that advantage or to recognize a miracle, as a believer when they are given to you [ an answer for prayers] which are then recognized as truth of the word.

Okay that made no sense whatsoever.

Are you saying that he doesn't have the powers or that you know for sure that he can't?

He says that he can that's the reason he is God.

Incorrect. A book claims that he says he can. Please get your facts straight.

Maxwell found that the aether possessed an electric-field scaling parameter, called "dielectric permittivity,"

Well, there is no ether, so that kills the argument, right there.

Believers know because they have made the leap of faith and have been shown what's important and relivent to us now.

So you admit that their beliefs have no grounding in reality ?

It is an old tenant of philosophy that ex nihilo nihil fit--out of nothing nothing comes. To imagine that vast amounts of energy flow into our physical universe from nowhere, from empty space, out of the "vacuum" at first appears impossible. To save the day we must resort either to magic or we must seek some rational explanation in Biblical revelation. The latter is not hard to do.

First off, I'm not sure nothing comes from nothing, as I'm not well versed in QM. Second, God is not a probable source of "something from nothing" any more than the void is.
 
To save the day we must resort either to magic or we must seek some rational explanation in Biblical revelation

Seek rational explanation in Biblical revelation? That is an oxymoron, don't you think?
 
It's obvious that both sides are right in the arguments presented here.
The advantage to a believer is the testing per say of what is still viable, like does prayer work for a believer.
Skeptics don’t have that advantage or to recognize a miracle, as a believer when they are given to you [ an answer for prayers] which are then recognized as truth of the word.

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SKEPTIC
November 2006 issue Wronger Than Wrong Not all wrong theories are equal By Michael Shermer
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In belles lettres the witty literary slight has evolved into a genre because, as 20th-century trial lawyer Louis Nizer noted, "A graceful taunt is worth a thousand insults." To wit, from high culture, Mark Twain: "I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it." Winston Churchill: "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." And from pop culture, Groucho Marx: "I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it." Scientists are no slouches when it comes to pitching invectives at colleagues. Achieving almost canonical status as the ne plus ultra put-down is theoretical physicist Wolfgang Pauli's reported harsh critique of a paper: "This isn't right. It's not even wrong." I call this Pauli's proverb.

Columbia University mathematician Peter Woit recently employed Pauli's proverb in his book title, a critique of string theory called Not Even Wrong (Basic Books, 2006). String theory, Woit argues, is not only based on nontestable hypotheses, it depends far too much on the aesthetic nature of its mathematics and the eminence of its proponents. In science, if an idea is not falsifiable, it is not that it is wrong, it is that we cannot determine if it is wrong, and thus it is not even wrong.

Not even wrong. What could be worse? Being wronger than wrong, or what I call Asimov's axiom, well stated in his book The Relativity of Wrong (Doubleday, 1988): "When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

Asimov's axiom holds that science is cumulative and progressive, building on the mistakes of the past, and that even though scientists are often wrong, their wrongness attenuates with continued data collection and theory building. Satellite measurements, for instance, have shown precisely how the earth's shape differs from a perfect sphere.
The view that all wrong theories are equal implies that no theory is better than any other. This is the theory of the "strong" social construction of science, which holds that science is inextricably bound to the social, political, economic, religious and ideological predilections of a culture, particularly of those individuals in power. Scientists are knowledge capitalists who produce scientific papers that report the results of experiments conducted to test (and usually support) the hegemonic theories that reinforce the status quo.


In some extreme cases, this theory that culture shapes the way science is conducted is right. In the mid-19th century, physicians discovered that slaves suffered from drapetomania, or the uncontrollable urge to escape from slavery, and dysaethesia aethiopica, or the tendency to be disobedient. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, scientific measurements of racial differences in cognitive abilities found that blacks were inferior to whites. In the mid-20th century, psychiatrists discov-ered evidence that allowed them to classify homosexuality as a disease. And until recently, women were considered -inherently inferior in science classrooms and corporate boardrooms.
Such egregious examples, however, do not negate the extraordinary ability of science to elucidate the natural and social worlds. Reality exists, and science is the best tool yet employed to discover and describe that reality. The theory of evolution, even though it is the subject of vigorous debates about the tempo and mode of life's history, is vastly superior to the theory of creation, which is not even wrong (in Pauli's sense). As evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins observed on this dispute: "When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."

Simply wrong. When people thought that science was unbiased and unbound by culture, they were simply wrong. On the other hand, when people thought that science was completely socially constructed, t hey were simply wrong. But if you believe that thinking science is unbiased is just as wrong as thinking that science is socially constructed, then your view is not even wronger than wrong.
Michael Shermer is publisher of Skeptic (www.skeptic.com). His new book is Why Darwin Matters.
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=13&articleID=00028C98-6F5C-152E-A9F183414B7F0000
 
God made humans with a free will. So true freedom is to have the ability to choose right or wrong. Wrong choices bring imperfection to a once perfect world. The first choice opposite God's plan was with the tree in the Garden. The Bible indicates that ALL of creation became cursed as a result.

Your cancer may not be a result of your own bad choices (however we do know from science that some cancers do come from bad choices), but creation is no longer perfect because of the bad choice of one man...Adam. Yes, it sounds naive. But it is truth... (I know...it's not PC to say something is truth. BUT if there really is truth...)
So God didn't create cancer? It came after the fall, as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience? So if God didn't create it, that means something else already extant at the time must have - um - EVOLVED into cancer.

So...
 
So God didn't create cancer? It came after the fall, as a result of Adam and Eve's disobedience? So if God didn't create it, that means something else already extant at the time must have - um - EVOLVED into cancer.

So...

Yet another sad example by 2LifeGuy that shows exactly how many Xians or new agers or whatever else like to use the excuse that the cancer victim somehow had it coming to them.

I wonder if it is fear of cancer that prompts such vitriol, or if it is something inherent in magical thinking...
 
Yet another sad example by 2LifeGuy that shows exactly how many Xians or new agers or whatever else like to use the excuse that the cancer victim somehow had it coming to them.

I wonder if it is fear of cancer that prompts such vitriol, or if it is something inherent in magical thinking...
There are bad choices oncologically-speaking, some of which we know about because of science and others that we don't. The sad need of some, such as 2LifeGuy, is to blend that into what they regard as spiritual choices. The saddest aspect is that they grasp at science - science tells us! - as a plank in a pond strewn with straw. If I just grab that plank, this straw that I invested so much desperate faith in will keep me afloat. Not the plank. The plank just explains why I'm still afloat to those who don't appreciate the miraculous properties of The Straw.
 
There are bad choices oncologically-speaking, some of which we know about because of science and others that we don't. The sad need of some, such as 2LifeGuy, is to blend that into what they regard as spiritual choices. The saddest aspect is that they grasp at science - science tells us! - as a plank in a pond strewn with straw. If I just grab that plank, this straw that I invested so much desperate faith in will keep me afloat. Not the plank. The plank just explains why I'm still afloat to those who don't appreciate the miraculous properties of The Straw.

I'm not sure what bad choices brought on multiple myeloma, but if 2LifeGuy wants to let me in on that secret I'd love to hear what it was.

However, in some cancers you are right, but that bad choice isn't justification for blaming the victim. Shouting "You're drowning cause you never learned to swim" at someone who is at present drowning is just cruel.
 
Without faith even a little, you will never know.

I was like you all once and I know, I argued from that skeptical point of view.

You want proof from me, You need to talk to the man he’s in charge.
Oh I can tell you stories of miracles even from people close to me but you will just dismiss them, no all I can do is point you in the right direction and hope you can distinguish on your own.
I’ll point when I can and hope you get it.

You guys have all the tools except one; you can distinguish between a cult leader that some one made a post of.
But we knew before he arrived.
And I’m sure you know or knew and took note too.
But you’re missing something; You want proof go and get it.
Belz...
Skeptic Guy
kmortis

When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."

But if you do not examine the other sides’ claim deeply, then how do you know?
You are not willing.

That from this side that can mean several things.
You must participate before you know for sure.
I have participated on your side and here I am over here.


Belz...

Arguing against reality is ultimately futile

I am practicing yours it goes like this,
don't cast your pearls before swine,
and like this my "sig" If you are practicing mine we must be on similar paths.
 
You want proof from me
A coherent argument would be nice,


You need to talk to the man he’s in charge.
Is he in charge of rambling and refusing to answer questions?


Oh I can tell you stories of miracles even from people close to me but you will just dismiss them
Well, if you constantly avoid any actual information we don't have much choice.


all I can do is point you in the right direction and hope you can distinguish on your own.
Apparently you can't even do that.


You guys have all the tools except one; you can distinguish between a cult leader that some one made a post of.
But we knew before he arrived.
And I’m sure you know or knew and took note too.
Is that supposed to say something?


But you’re missing something; You want proof go and get it.
That's not how it works.


But if you do not examine the other sides’ claim deeply, then how do you know?
Why don't you make a claim that can be examined, or are you not willing?
 
Without faith even a little, you will never know.

I was like you all once and I know, I argued from that skeptical point of view.

You want proof from me, You need to talk to the man he’s in charge.
Oh I can tell you stories of miracles even from people close to me but you will just dismiss them, no all I can do is point you in the right direction and hope you can distinguish on your own.
I’ll point when I can and hope you get it.

You guys have all the tools except one; you can distinguish between a cult leader that some one made a post of.
But we knew before he arrived.
And I’m sure you know or knew and took note too.
But you’re missing something; You want proof go and get it.
Belz...
Skeptic Guy
kmortis

When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."

But if you do not examine the other sides’ claim deeply, then how do you know?
You are not willing.

That from this side that can mean several things.
You must participate before you know for sure.
I have participated on your side and here I am over here.


Belz...

Arguing against reality is ultimately futile

I am practicing yours it goes like this,
don't cast your pearls before swine,
and like this my "sig" If you are practicing mine we must be on similar paths.

Many of the atheist posters on here were once Christians (myself amongst them), so what? Arguments are either valid or not, convincing or not, backed up with good evidence or not and it doesn't matter at all what the religious history of the person making the argument is. Debate of all kinds would be greatly helped if people could remember this.
 
You want proof from me, You need to talk to the man he’s in charge.

Therefore you are not needed here.

Oh I can tell you stories of miracles even from people close to me but you will just dismiss them,

Without proof ? Of course.

When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong."

That would be yours.

But if you do not examine the other sides’ claim deeply, then how do you know?
You are not willing.

Again, without proof ? Of course.

Arguing against reality is ultimately futile

I am practicing yours it goes like this,
don't cast your pearls before swine,
and like this my "sig" If you are practicing mine we must be on similar paths.

No, I am on a path that requires open eyes. Yours requires blind faith.
 
Yet another sad example by 2LifeGuy that shows exactly how many Xians or new agers or whatever else like to use the excuse that the cancer victim somehow had it coming to them.

I wonder if it is fear of cancer that prompts such vitriol, or if it is something inherent in magical thinking...

I think some of it has to do with the fact that they rely on their religion for a moral compass and their god for their understanding of the universe. The fact that bad stuff just happens is hard to reconcile with the thought of a loving god. When confronted with the Epicurean Paradox, they can't accept that their god would allow bad things to happen to a good person, therefore you must be a bad person, deserving of the punishment.

I wonder if their heads would explode of they ever noticed that Christians come on here and blame you for your cancer while the evil atheists are supportive.
 
Sorry, Edge, but that's just nonsense. Many of us have been exactly where you stand. But our eyes were opened and we realized that we were living in fear under a system of arbitrary rules and contradictions and that none of it was the truth. Religion is just one more human superstition based on fear and ignorance and unworthy of the very people it enslaves.
 
Not about to read all this thread, so this may have been mentioned already.

Just a quick note to this "Edge" bloke, with the cute quote from Einstein.

Einstein had this to say about people who thought he was a theist:

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. [Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]

Edge, of course, has fallen into the trap of many unwary thicko christians, taking Einstein's words to mean what they want them to mean.
 
If we take the Bible literally than we must explain dragons and demons and angels in a logical way. Impossible.

Satan is a name only representing evil thoughts and ideas that come from within. Angels would be the opposite, representing the good.
If we cannot get away from the mythology within the Bible we will never understand it's message.

Real or not the message should be the focus.

Regards
DL
 
2LifeGuy


(1) Would you be so kind as to inform us of any practical use or any predictions that your so-called "science" can make?

(2) Can you point out any flaws in real science?
?

Greetings Ossai,

I only have time for one post today, and so many questions... I chose those you listed above.

First, and any creationists out there can correct me, but I would say that a belief that the Bible is 100% inerrant is not to say that faith is a science, rather that whenever the Bible makes a statement where the context touches on science, the Bible will prove to accurate.

So with regard to your question 1 above, based the Bible teaching of a world-wide flood less than 5000 years ago I should be able to make some predictions:

1. There should be no living tree older than 5000 years.
2. There should be no current dessert over 5000 years old.
3. There should be no coral reef older than 5000 years.
4. We should be able to observe evidence of entire jungles under sedimentary rock
5. We should be able to find seashells at the tops of any ancient mountain
6. We should find not one or two scattered fossils, but entire swaths of fossilized creatures
7. Since trees often sink in a vertical position we should be able to find thousands of petrified trees standing straight up in the (supposed ancient) sedimentary layers that would settle during flood conditions.
8. We should be able to find evidence of sedementary layers spanning whole continents.
9. We should be able to find fossilized "fragile or soft tissues" of animals including even fragile eggs and jellyfish.

These are some of the predictions I think one should reasonably be able to make if indeed there has been a world wide flood.

Question 2
I don't think there are any flaws in "real" science. I do think there are plenty of flaws in evolution. There are no missing links, though... for that you would have to have a chain. In evolution, the whole chain is missing!

God Bless,

2Life
 

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