The Bible is 100% true and to be read literally

[Upchurch]

I don't think spontaneous generation is part of science, but willing to see the evidence.

This is usually a good place to start. The origin of life should be as much a part of the scientific field as any natural phenomena. If it happens in nature, it can be studied by science.

Since God is outside of his creation, he can and does exert his will from time to time, as seen in miracles described.

I don't think that's true, but I'm willing to see the evidence.

 

[2LifeGuy]

Answer the first question. Sadistic, uncaring or incompetent?

If you believe that God is the reason you have cancer, then all would seem to apply.

I can't prove Him to you. If you ask him to reveal himself directly to you...with the intended purpose that you would follow him if he really were real, I believe he will clearly reveal himself and his true nature. Anyway, that's what I did. I just asked. ...oh, and nobody was telling me to... so see this last statement as just just a reply and nothing more...

 

[Ipecac]

I've been following this exchange and all I see is the argument from ignorance.

2LifeGuy, believe it or not, people actually understand in tremendous detail without room for doubt how evolution works. And they have answers to all the misrepresentations you've been making here. Read some Dawkins, specifically the Blind Watchmaker.

Pointing out the limits of human knowledge doesn't mean that scientists are wrong about what they've learned so far.

And keep this in mind at all times. Biological machines are VASTLY different from mechanical machines. Airplanes can't evolve. Humans do.

 

[Ducky]

If you believe that God is the reason you have cancer, then all would seem to apply.

I can't prove Him to you. If you ask him to reveal himself directly to you...with the intended purpose that you would follow him if he really were real, I believe he will clearly reveal himself and his true nature. Anyway, that's what I did. I just asked. ...oh, and nobody was telling me to... so see this last statement as just just a reply and nothing more...

I don't believe that God is the reason I got cancer, I am pointing out to you that you by asserting he is perfect have been forced to accept that God created cancer.

So...how do you reconcile that?

 

[NobbyNobbs]

On the Noah question, I would answer similar to Cain and his wife question.

On what the difference between magic and God is... I think most people define magic like the genie granting wishes, whereas God grants life, and life that He created. I know it's a leap to see the two as different, but they are really polar opposites. Also when I think of magic I think of something used either for selfish means or maybe for entertainment. God, on the other hand, used his power to lay his life down in pain on our behalf. (Sorry to be so preachy!)

Sorry, but I still don't see the difference. A genie grants wishes...God answers prayers. A genie's power is supernatural, unexplainable, not duplicable...so is God's. Again, what's the difference between God and magic?

So far, NO positive mutations which benefit a creature with NEW information has ever been observed. That is why they never show a picture of a positive mutation in text books...only negative ones.

Obviously there are observable changes in animals...in breeding programs for example...but selective breeding is making use of features that are already contained in the gene pool.

I bet there is a scientist who will challenge this, but I'm just saying after some research, I have never seen evidence for a true positive mutation.

I seem to recall a particular butterfly that adapted the pattern of another speices of butterfly, one that birds generally avoid due to bad taste. Anybody know which one I'm talking about?

Well I disagree. If you analyze the parts of a plane, nothing about that analysis will tell you how the iron or aluminum were screwed together, or who did the fabrication work. You can say, I think these parts just came together, or you can say I think these parts had a designer or manufacturer. The individual parts themselves will not give you the answer...well I think they will...

I don't understand how my TV works, BUT by its nature it was obviously designed. This is a true understanding of the truth.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. "Look, a screw. And here's a nut. Looks like one was meant to go into the other. And they are both big enough to fit into this hole here, which would hold this piece on...."

Granted, it would take a lot of time to figure it out. But evolution had plenty of time.

I made a generic statement that evolution is one kind of animal changing into another. Apes to people for example. I don't really think a source is needed.

This does not demonstrate a solid understanding of evolutionary theory.

 

[grayman]

Take away one component, and the whole thing breaks down. A designer, can make an airplane fly. We could never gain an understanding of how the plane was created by studying its individual parts.

As I pilot I feel the need to add my $0.02 worth to this comment.

Take away a component, let's say the engine of a multi-engine aircraft, and the whole component does not break down, It continues to a point where a landing and repairs may be safely made.

If the component is the engine of a single-engine aircraft, you now are piloting a glider to the safest landing possible.

In other words, the loss of the component has altered the function of the whole, but has not broken the whole thing down.

If that were the case, then life would indeed imitate art, since whenever an aircraft runs out of fuel or whatever on film, the plane spirals out of control and crashes. This would be akin to your automobile running out of gas causing the wheels to lock up and having you skid into the ditch where the vehicle immediately explodes into a fireball.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Sorry, but I still don't see the difference. A genie grants wishes...God answers prayers. A genie's power is supernatural, unexplainable, not duplicable...so is God's. Again, what's the difference between God and magic?

The genie is typically represented as actually having to grant the wishes, whereas God just does whatever fool thing he had already planned to do.

 

[2LifeGuy]

This is usually a good place to start. The origin of life should be as much a part of the scientific field as any natural phenomena. If it happens in nature, it can be studied by science.

I don't think that's true, but I'm willing to see the evidence.

There was a worldwide flood according to the Bible. (a miracle in the timing if nothing else) I choose this one because I think that many who believe the Bible, believe this was literal, and many who believe evolution do not believe this was literal.

One evidence I see for a world wide flood with is this... When I look at the grand canyon, I see the "ancient layers." Some are said to have millions of years between them. Yet they are perfectly straight for miles in some areas. If they are formed gradually, as the tour guides say, then how could the line between them be perfectly straight? No wind erosion, nothing to change the flat surface for millions of years? But from a biblical perspective, it is understandable to have these layers, formed from sediment...and somewhere I read that many of these layers spread over our entire continent... just like a global flood could create.

 

[kmortis]

I seem to recall a particular butterfly that adapted the pattern of another speices of butterfly, one that birds generally avoid due to bad taste. Anybody know which one I'm talking about?

IIRC, you're refering to the Monarch Butterfly^WP and Viceroy butterfly^WP.

 

[Upchurch]

On what the difference between magic and God is... I think most people define magic like the genie granting wishes, whereas God grants life, and life that He created. I know it's a leap to see the two as different, but they are really polar opposites. Also when I think of magic I think of something used either for selfish means or maybe for entertainment. God, on the other hand, used his power to lay his life down in pain on our behalf. (Sorry to be so preachy!)

I don't follow. You think what God does is different than magic because of the intent behind it? What does that have to do with anything?

If I use my power to turn on a light switch, the act itself and the mechanism I use to perform that act is not dependant upon my intent for turning on that light switch. Likewise, when God uses unnatural (i.e. "not of nature") force to enact change on the natural world, how is that different from, as you say, a genie using unnatural force to enact change on the natural world?

 

[2LifeGuy]

As I pilot I feel the need to add my $0.02 worth to this comment.

Take away a component, let's say the engine of a multi-engine aircraft, and the whole component does not break down, It continues to a point where a landing and repairs may be safely made..

Right, but the context was, if you remove one component from these intricately designed microscopic systems, the system doesn't function. This means the gradual steps of evolution could not have created the system. All of the components would have had to evolve at the same moment...together.

 

[Ducky]

Right, but the context was, if you remove one component from these intricately designed microscopic systems, the system doesn't function. This means the gradual steps of evolution could not have created the system. All of the components would have had to evolve at the same moment...together.

You do know they were playing with gliders well before the jet engine, right?


You analogy is simply flawed and not applicable.


How do you reconcile that your perfect god created cancer?

 

[Tanstaafl]

Right, but the context was, if you remove one component from these intricately designed microscopic systems, the system doesn't function. This means the gradual steps of evolution could not have created the system. All of the components would have had to evolve at the same moment...together.

Evolution does not add one system at a time. The species as a whole evolves.

You really should learn about evolution, if for no other reason than so you can make more coherent arguments against it.

 

[Upchurch]

One evidence I see for a world wide flood with is this... When I look at the grand canyon, I see the "ancient layers." Some are said to have millions of years between them. Yet they are perfectly straight for miles in some areas.

Perfectly straight? Are you sure about that?

You have to take into account that various sedimentary layers are compressed more or less flat by the material sitting on top of it.

 

[2LifeGuy]

I don't believe that God is the reason I got cancer, I am pointing out to you that you by asserting he is perfect have been forced to accept that God created cancer.

So...how do you reconcile that?

God made humans with a free will. So true freedom is to have the ability to choose right or wrong. Wrong choices bring imperfection to a once perfect world. The first choice opposite God's plan was with the tree in the Garden. The Bible indicates that ALL of creation became cursed as a result.

Your cancer may not be a result of your own bad choices (however we do know from science that some cancers do come from bad choices), but creation is no longer perfect because of the bad choice of one man...Adam. Yes, it sounds naive. But it is truth... (I know...it's not PC to say something is truth. BUT if there really is truth...)

 

[Ducky]

God made humans with a free will. So true freedom is to have the ability to choose right or wrong. Wrong choices bring imperfection to a once perfect world. The first choice opposite God's plan was with the tree in the Garden. The Bible indicates that ALL of creation became cursed as a result.

Your cancer may not be a result of your own bad choices (however we do know from science that some cancers do come from bad choices), but creation is no longer perfect because of the bad choice of one man...Adam. Yes, it sounds naive. But it is truth... (I know...it's not PC to say something is truth. BUT if there really is truth...)

God created cancer to punish? So you're going with "Sadistic"?









ETA:

By the way, you are not the first, nor will you be the last uneducated religious fundie to claim this on this forum. That statement is, however, a wonderful hallmark to judge the quality of reasoning and argumentation to expect from you.

 

[kmortis]

Right, but the context was, if you remove one component from these intricately designed microscopic systems, the system doesn't function. This means the gradual steps of evolution could not have created the system. All of the components would have had to evolve at the same moment...together.

Well, that's only true if you assume, a priori that the component was built with it's currently observed function in mind. Which means that you're assuming your conclusion.

Take one of Behe's favorite exapmles, the bacterial flagella. Oh sure, take some of the protiens out and it stop working as a means of transportation. However, it works GREAT as a bacteria sized hypodermic needle. And golly gee whiz, if that's not what is found in other critters. (and yes, I know that I'm horribly simplifying it, check the link for a more through description)

As has been pointed out to you, mechanical systems are really poor analogies for biological ones. Unless you keep it VERY limited. System wide, the analogy breaks down too quickly.

 

[2LifeGuy]

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. "Look, a screw. And here's a nut. Looks like one was meant to go into the other. And they are both big enough to fit into this hole here, which would hold this piece on...."

This does not demonstrate a solid understanding of evolutionary theory.

Actually you sort of make my point by saying, "It was MEANT to go into..." Who meant for it to? The designer. The plane obviously has a designer.

I'm just saying earth is the same. When you see a screw and a nut, and they fit, and they work, you know somebody made it and had a purpose. God has a purpose too in his creation. The neat thing is that he also has a purpose for us. (oops, here I am preaching again...and I'm not a preacher... really.)

 

[Ducky]

Actually you sort of make my point by saying, "It was MEANT to go into..." Who meant for it to? The designer. The plane obviously has a designer.

I'm just saying earth is the same. When you see a screw and a nut, and they fit, and they work, you know somebody made it and had a purpose. God has a purpose too in his creation. The neat thing is that he also has a purpose for us. (oops, here I am preaching again...and I'm not a preacher... really.)

Check KMortis's post as to why assuming your conclusion makes for poor logic.

 

[cyborg]

(oops, here I am preaching again...and I'm not a preacher... really.)

Frankly since you come here and tell us you 'learnt' evolution in school yet base all your arguments on the standard creationists yawn-fests (ever considered we fit ourselves to the environment rather than the other way around?) the options look limited.