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Links Between Holocaust Denial/Revisionism and 9-11 "Truthers"

?????

OK, three irrelevant off topic posts further on in the thread, so c'mon guys lets stop beating around the bush and you just tell me what are you expecting to hear from me?
 
William- you are aware that many 9-11 truthers consider zionism to be bent on world domination, that the zionists made up the holocaust, started ww1, and are behind 9-11?

this isnt a neo-nazi conspiracy theory. all you have to do is go to the loose change forum or the pilots for truth forum and ask them what they think about zionism. they will make the usual claim that "we are not against jews". but then they will go on to say that "zionism is about world domination".

it doesnt take a genius to see the anti-semitism that has become embedded into the 9-11 "truth" movemant.
 
William- you are aware that many 9-11 truthers consider zionism to be bent on world domination, that the zionists made up the holocaust, started ww1, and are behind 9-11?

this isnt a neo-nazi conspiracy theory. all you have to do is go to the loose change forum or the pilots for truth forum and ask them what they think about zionism. they will make the usual claim that "we are not against jews". but then they will go on to say that "zionism is about world domination".

it doesnt take a genius to see the anti-semitism that has become embedded into the 9-11 "truth" movemant.

No, you are absolutely wrong. It is not irrational to be anti-Zionist and absolutely sympathetic to the plight of the Jewish people as a whole. Are you saying that Orthodox Jews who are anti-Zionist and even those that attended the Iranian led Holocaust conference are anti-semitic?

Your inability to extricate Jewishness from Zionism is the problem that leads you to the illogical sentence you put together above. In the first two paragraphs you talk about Zionism and in the final one you switch to anti-semitism to infer linkage to the truth movement.
 
OK, three irrelevant off topic posts further on in the thread, so c'mon guys lets stop beating around the bush and you just tell me what are you expecting to hear from me?

I'm sorry but you are not the topic of this thread.
 
Sheesh!

I'm sorry but you are not the topic of this thread.

And yet it would seem that despite me declaring many posts ago that my beliefs are irrelevant to the thread you guys decided to make me the topic!

Kind of confused aren't y'all?

Anways this is too much fun to be having before bed time so I'm outta here, look forward to reading more of your "stuff" tomorrow.
 
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No, you are absolutely wrong. It is not irrational to be anti-Zionist and absolutely sympathetic to the plight of the Jewish people as a whole. Are you saying that Orthodox Jews who are anti-Zionist and even those that attended the Iranian led Holocaust conference are anti-semitic?

Your inability to extricate Jewishness from Zionism is the problem that leads you to the illogical sentence you put together above. In the first two paragraphs you talk about Zionism and in the final one you switch to anti-semitism to infer linkage to the truth movement.

The Orthodox Jews who went to the Holocaust conference, #1, do not deny that the Holocaust happen. They believe that it was God's punishment and that the Zionists somehow were involved. This group "naturei karta" is as much a representative of judaism as snake-handlers are to christianity.

and while i consider anti-zionism to have some merits....to equate zionism with a scheme of world wide domination smacks of outright anti-semitism. simply saying that not all jews are zionists doesnt change the fact that most jews support israel's right to exist..which makes them zionists.

and yes, saying that the zionists fabricated the holocaust inorder to get support for israel is indeed anti-semitic nonsense. milliions of people were systematically slaughtered and anyone who denies this...is a pure bigot.
 
The Orthodox Jews who went to the Holocaust conference, #1, do not deny that the Holocaust happen. They believe that it was God's punishment and that the Zionists somehow were involved. This group "naturei karta" is as much a representative of judaism as snake-handlers are to christianity.
.

Are you sure they believe the zionists were involved? I was under the impression that they thought that Israel should not be established until the Messiah returned and that zionists are violating this. I dont think they are against the idea of Israel per se.

Cheers,
SLOB
 
The Orthodox Jews who went to the Holocaust conference, #1, do not deny that the Holocaust happen. They believe that it was God's punishment and that the Zionists somehow were involved. This group "naturei karta" is as much a representative of judaism as snake-handlers are to christianity.

and while i consider anti-zionism to have some merits....to equate zionism with a scheme of world wide domination smacks of outright anti-semitism. simply saying that not all jews are zionists doesnt change the fact that most jews support israel's right to exist..which makes them zionists.

and yes, saying that the zionists fabricated the holocaust inorder to get support for israel is indeed anti-semitic nonsense. milliions of people were systematically slaughtered and anyone who denies this...is a pure bigot.

1. I never said they were holocaust deniers.
2. They are still Jewish.
3. It demonstrates what I originally asserted which was that it is possible to be anti-Zionist and not anti-semitic.
4. It is legitimate to assert that Zionists will use whatever political means they can to achieve Zion. Why is that such a shock to you? Do you believe that Jewish people are unique among world peoples in that they have no sense of political pragmatism? That doesn't mean they want world domination, just that they look after their national interest in any way possible.
5. "most Jews", how many exactly is that and how many are 4th, 5th or even 6th generation citizens of Israel? My assertion was that being anti-Zionist does not mean you are anti-semitic so when people accuse anti-Zionists of being anti-semitic they are way off the mark.
6. Do you deny that post war liberal guilt over the Holocaust was a factor in establishing Israel? Again, how politically naive do you believe the Zionists to be.
7. The slaughter of over 6 million Jews, Socialists, Gypsies and Homosexuals during WW2 was abhorrent. Even more so for the mechanised Industrial way it was carried out. I shouldn't have to say that in this thread but my wariness of the topic forces me to declare it because of the Holocaust confetti throwers.
8. The partition of Palestine was a disaster. I reserve the right to oppose it without being accused of anti-semitism just as I can oppose the partition of Ireland without being anti-protestant. I despise people who throw the label "anti-semite" around like confetti just as much as I despise the illiberal politics of the far right and far left.
 
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William- you are aware that many 9-11 truthers consider zionism to be bent on world domination, that the zionists made up the holocaust, started ww1, and are behind 9-11?

this isnt a neo-nazi conspiracy theory. all you have to do is go to the loose change forum or the pilots for truth forum and ask them what they think about zionism. they will make the usual claim that "we are not against jews". but then they will go on to say that "zionism is about world domination".

it doesnt take a genius to see the anti-semitism that has become embedded into the 9-11 "truth" movemant.

I went to Loose Change and looked for myself last year after noting the almost irrational obsession that this forum has for it. Wasn't impressed and don't particularly want to go back there.

I truly can understand the fear of the politics of the far right and left that makes people draw the line in the sand way before anti-Zionism becomes anti-semitism. The problem is that it polarises everything and forces you to believe that Israel can do no wrong. This is extremely unhealthy in any political scenario.

Anti-Zionism is not anti-semitism.
 
Killtown.

From the David Wong article just linked in the Best Skeptics Posts thread.

There are over 192,000 posts on that forum made by over 6,000 members. As far as I can see someone named Killtown initiated it and was mostly challenged by the other posters.

There is a link at the end of the thread to a holocaust education website http://www.holocausteducationctr.org/

The question is, so what?
 
Why does it have to be called anti-Zionism? Why can't you just say, "Some of Israel's policys I disagree with." Why the insistence on terminology that mimics the terminology of anti-Semitism?

What does the term "Zion" mean to you?

Do you know who Killtown is?

On edit: And that thread I linked to has only 3 pages. It doesn't have 192,000 posts and Killtown was most definitely not "mostly challenged" by the other posters. In fact, the adverb I'd put in front of "challenged" to describe the response is "hardly".
 
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Why does it have to be called anti-Zionism? Why can't you just say, "Some of Israel's policys I disagree with." Why the insistence on terminology that mimics the terminology of anti-Semitism?

What does the term "Zion" mean to you?

Do you know who Killtown is?

On edit: And that thread I linked to has only 3 pages. It doesn't have 192,000 posts and Killtown was most definitely not "mostly challenged" by the other posters. In fact, the adverb I'd put in front of "challenged" to describe the response is "hardly".

As I said, there are 192,000 posts on the FORUM.

Both your proposals usually provoke the same response from the confetti throwers. Israel cannot be challenged.

I use the term anti-Zionist because that is how it has been raised on here. A duck is a duck no matter what name you give it but with the simple mindset on here I tend to find it easier to stick to the native language.

I will check again for the ratio challenging and supporting.

Edit...

I don't know and don't particularly care who killtown is except to use his postings as a way to advance the validity of my assertions.

The ratio seems 50/50 to me. Some are neutral posts others are directly challenging it but there seem to be only 3 or 4 posters hinting at far right politics. Mostly they are questioning the right to have an unorthodox position but their motives for adopting that position could be questioned.
 
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Zionism is the Jewish national movement of rebirth and renewal in the land of Israel - the historical birthplace of the Jewish people. The yearning to return to Zion, the biblical term for both the Land of Israel and Jerusalem, has been the cornerstone of Jewish religious life since the Jewish exile from the land two thousand years ago, and is embedded in Jewish prayer, ritual, literature and culture.
Modern Zionism emerged in the late 19th century in response to the violent persecution of Jews in Eastern Europe, anti-Semitism in Western Europe. Modern Zionism fused the ancient Jewish biblical and historical ties to the ancestral homeland with the modern concept of nationalism into a vision of establishing a modern Jewish state in the land of Israel.
The "father" of modern Zionism, Austrian journalist Theodor Herzl, consolidated various strands of Zionist thought into an organized political movement, advocating for international recognition of a "Jewish state" and encouraging Jewish immigration to build the land.
Today, decades after the actual founding of a Jewish state, Zionism continues to be the guiding nationalist movement of the majority of Jews around the world who believe in, support and identify with the State of Israel. Zionism, the national aspiration of the Jewish people to a homeland, is to the Jewish people what the liberation movements of Africa and Asia have been to their peoples.
History has demonstrated the need to ensure Jewish security through such a homeland. The re-establishment of Jewish independence in Israel, after centuries of struggle to overcome foreign conquest and exile, is a vindication of the fundamental concepts of the equality of nations and of self-determination. To question the Jewish people's right to national existence and freedom is not only to deny to the Jewish people the right accorded to every other people on this globe, but it is also to deny the central precepts of the United Nations.
http://www.adl.org/durban/zionism.asp

Is this what were are talking about, or no?
 
Thank you, Arken. So why, if people really just have problems with the foreign policies of Israel, do they proclaim themselves against a "central tenet of Jewish religious life", against the "Jewish people's right to national existence and freedom", and "against the central precepts of the United Nations itself"?

Why can't you say, "Dude, the way Israel is treating the Palestinians [rule8]s"? Why does anyone have to use the euphemistic term "anti-Zionism"?
 
William- just out of curiosity. what makes the founding of israel so much more abhorrent then the founding of the usa? the founding of australia? the founding of canada?

the canadians, americans, and australians went to great lenghts to ANNIHILATE their native populations. they now all exist in relative squaller. meanwhile in israel, their arab minority has grown from 200,000 to more then 1 million. they have a higher standard of living then most arab states. higher literacy, higher quality of health care. yes, the arabs do suffer from discrimination...but if you are going to talk about nations that have commited crimes against their "natives"..point that finger right back at ya.

and yes, it is indeed anti-semitic to suggest that Zionists (as opposed to brits or germans or italians) would stop at nothing (even falsefying a genocide) to achieve their aims. what makes zionists so demonic that only zionists could come up with such things?
 
I've noticed that in addition to the unholy alliance between Truthers and holocaust deniers, many 9/11 kooks have, in also other than 9/11 debates, proven themselves to be some sort of "universal kooks". It means that they tend to swallow every possible US-involving conspiracy theory from the UFOs of Area 51 through Moon landing fakes to the New World Order. Also it's not unusual for many of them to worship murderers like Che Guevara, or just anyone who happens to be an enemy of USA. I've even met some who were convinced that the Taleban-ruled Afghanistan was virtually a flourishing paradise until evil americans came and bombed the country into a desert. Sigh.

I've noticed the same thing. I know a guy who subscribes to 9/11 conspiracy theories--and virtually every other consipiracy theory as well: the Illuminati, the Masons, the Knights Templar, the Jewish Banking Conspiracy--you name it. He had piles of books by David Icke, David Irving, various John Birch screeds, and most of the Loompanics back list. He is the most frustrating person I've ever talked to.

I suspect that the content of any particular conspiracy theory is a lot less significant than the general trait of conspiracism, which seems to fill a role in the person's life much like religion would. And every conspiracy nut eventually winds up flirting with, if not completely committed to, anti-semitism. It seems to be the mother of all conspiracy theories. Conspiracy theorists would rather believe in some sort of Devil, in a shadowy cabal which only needs to be overthrown to restore health to the body politic, rather that accept that the world is very complex. They would rather believe that "nothing happens by accident" rather than believe that nobody is actually in complete control. If the driver is an evil genius, he may not take you where you want to go, but at least he won't crash the bus. But if the driver doesn't actually know how to drive, then he may well drive off a cliff and kill everyone, including himself.

For those who have no comprehension or control, it's actually reassuring to believe that someone does--even if that someone is evil.
 
William- just out of curiosity. what makes the founding of israel so much more abhorrent then the founding of the usa? the founding of australia? the founding of canada?

the canadians, americans, and australians went to great lenghts to ANNIHILATE their native populations. they now all exist in relative squaller. meanwhile in israel, their arab minority has grown from 200,000 to more then 1 million. they have a higher standard of living then most arab states. higher literacy, higher quality of health care. yes, the arabs do suffer from discrimination...but if you are going to talk about nations that have commited crimes against their "natives"..point that finger right back at ya.

and yes, it is indeed anti-semitic to suggest that Zionists (as opposed to brits or germans or italians) would stop at nothing (even falsefying a genocide) to achieve their aims. what makes zionists so demonic that only zionists could come up with such things?

Actually most of the deaths of Native Americans and Aboriginals happened incidently through diseases spread by newcomers that they had no immunity to, relatively little effort was involved.
 
William- just out of curiosity. what makes the founding of israel so much more abhorrent then the founding of the usa? the founding of australia? the founding of canada?

the canadians, americans, and australians went to great lenghts to ANNIHILATE their native populations. they now all exist in relative squaller. meanwhile in israel, their arab minority has grown from 200,000 to more then 1 million. they have a higher standard of living then most arab states. higher literacy, higher quality of health care. yes, the arabs do suffer from discrimination...but if you are going to talk about nations that have commited crimes against their "natives"..point that finger right back at ya.

and yes, it is indeed anti-semitic to suggest that Zionists (as opposed to brits or germans or italians) would stop at nothing (even falsefying a genocide) to achieve their aims. what makes zionists so demonic that only zionists could come up with such things?

I often wonder about that point too.

The next point of course that can be raised is whether or not it was "right" to create Israel in the first place, now that it DOES exist, and has a large and loyal poulation, what could possibly justify the abolition of the existing nation?

Also, while I know very little about the history of the native North American people, I can say that it is most definately incorrect to state that the Aboriginal Australians were deliberately annihilated - while there are a few massacres recorded (both of and by aboriginals), many of the true deliberate attempts to round up the aboriginal population (not even to kill them) were ineffective to the point of being laughable. Disease and the introduction of alcohol would probably be down as the top two issues. A topic for another thread, however.
 

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