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Killtown's Val McClatchey photo analysis

theres a huge thread on this here, just sort the forum page by most replies and it will be near the top
 
Does this even need debunking? Is it actually convincing enough to convince anyone?
 
 
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73 pages, huh? I have a lot of reading to do! But thank you for posting this; I was mainly curious to see if this had been addressed yet.
 
chippy said:
So how do we respond to this?
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I'll save you the trouble of reading that whole thread, although there's some excellent JREFer analysis there. Killtown made the claim. That's how you know it's wrong.

A slightly longer version:

Flight 93 crashed outside Shanksville. Val McClatchey heard it, grabbed her camera, and took a photo of the mushroom cloud. These events happened in the real world.
 
What degree and expertise does Killtown have in the field of photo analysis? 'nuf said.
 
jhunter1163 said:
If you want the techie stuff, search for Arkan's posts in that thread. The guy knows his (rule8), where Killtown clearly does not.

Wasn't that the thread where he added 120 feet to 580 miles per hour, among other gems? And don't forget the picture..
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1) Apparently not, since I haven't bothered finishing my blog entry summary of it :boggled:
2) I just google-earth well, there's a lot better technical info in there then the stuff I threw together.
3) But thanks for the kind words none-the-less.
 
Arkan_Wolfshade said:
1) Apparently not, since I haven't bothered finishing my blog entry summary of it :boggled:
2) I just google-earth well, there's a lot better technical info in there then the stuff I threw together.
3) But thanks for the kind words none-the-less.
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Responded to in the Killtown stylee! :D
 
midwestzero said:
would you mind posting the official time please?

thx

P.S. I dont wanna read a novel
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You really should read the thread if you want to see what "killtown" is all about, and then come to your own conclusions.

It's quite entertaining, actually.
 
Please, please let's not revisit this again. This is the one thread that makes me question my faith in humanity.

To recap briefly, the main points gleaned from the discussion were as follows:

  1. The size, shape, and position of the smoke cloud are well within expectations
  2. Killtown's claims about mismatches in aircraft position and speed are attributable to nothing other than deliberate quote-mining
  3. The Flight Data Recorder, debris field, and debris contents all check, including an engine core that bounced a few hundred yards (it was going over 500 MPH before impact, duh)
  4. Killtown's complaints about "other marks" and "missing burn areas" come from looking at Google Earth, photos taken who knows how long after the event took place
  5. Killtown's assertions about the extent of burned and unburned vegetation are based on incomplete evidence cobbled together from TV news screencaptures, and fail to take into accout the litany of airplane crashes that left similar effects on vegetation
  6. Killtown honestly believes that grainy video of a fully-fueled, low-altitude, low-speed B-52 crash (without measurements) is the best possible parallel to Flight 93, and runner-up is a similar video of a weapons test
  7. Killtown cannot even add two numbers together without making a mistake, and does not understand the significance of units such as seconds, meters, knots, etc.
  8. While Val McClatchey may have had access to photo-editing software, so does virtually everyone else in the world, and there is no evidence that she altered anything
  9. Val is not profiting by this venture, but donates all money sent to Heroic Choices, a charity organization honoring Mr. Todd Beamer, a victim of Flight 93
  10. Killtown has been threatened, quite justly, with lawsuits, and his harassment documented in newsprint and on television
  11. Killtown was blissfully banned for life from the JREF for his persistent slander of Val McClatchey, not to mention use without permission of her photograph, which is copyrighted material

"Debate" him at your own peril. A human being more analogous to a classic "tar baby" is difficult to conceive.
 
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midwestzero said:
would you mind posting the official time please?
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There wasn't an "official" time. UAL93 crashed around 10:03 am, and Val snapped the picture shortly thereafter. How shortly? That was the subject of some conjecture and educated guessing in that other thread. My best guess was one or two minutes, putting it at 10:04 or 10:05. Others thought it could have been as many as five IIRC.
 
midwestzero said:
what time after the impact was the photo taken?
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Nobody knows precisely. We have two estimates for local wind speed at the time of the crash: 9 knots and 25 knots, the former based on weather reports and likely a good average, but not reflective of microclimate; the second from the last seconds of the Flight 93 FDR, in the right place but not necessarily accurate. Given the approximate drift of about 200 meters, we suspect the photo was taken between 16 seconds (using the 25 knots estimate) and 40 seconds (using 9 knots) after impact. These numbers seem completely plausible to me, and I dare say virtually everyone who participated in the discussion.

The best graphical post showing the drift, estimated plume size, and angle subtended from Val's location, is by poster Arkan_Wolfshade on Page 68 of the Thread From Hell. His graphs also include the relative size of crater, debris field, and smoke, showing the clear and reasonable progression along the aircraft's former direction of travel.

Even Killtown himself conceded that the distance traveled by the cloud was reasonable, even though he never got it through his head that the cloud would expand and traverse at the same time. And no, I'm not kidding.
 
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