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A dialogue on acupuncture

robinson said:
That is even weirder than if it worked as claimed!
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:boggled: What?! It doesn't seem odd that jabbing someone with needles would have a physiological effect, especially in regards to pain: at the very least, it's a distraction, and maybe it's causing a release of more endorphins. It would be pretty frickin' weird that sticking needles in otherwise unobservable streams of unobservable life force running past my left nipple would help with arthritis.
 
I don't know. The studies and evidence that it can be used for surgery and tooth extraction, is a little hard to dismiss as placebo effect. Especially when they use animals. How can that be? Just by using needles (whether they are electrostimulated or hand stimulated), how can that stop pain?

As in real pain, like dental work? That is a real mystery to science.
 
What is even stranger, is that you can produce all kinds of effects without needles, just by pressing on the points, with fingers or tools.
 
robinson said:
Especially when they use animals. How can that be?
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Animal tests don't help with observational bias at all: "Look! The little guy is _much_ calmer now that I've done the acupuncture."

Of course, this is on top of the fact that jabbing someone with needles (as opposed to acupuncture) might have a real physiological effect as well, even if the strength of effect is wildly variable.
 
robinson said:
I don't know. The studies and evidence that it can be used for surgery and tooth extraction, is a little hard to dismiss as placebo effect. Especially when they use animals. How can that be? Just by using needles (whether they are electrostimulated or hand stimulated), how can that stop pain?

As in real pain, like dental work? That is a real mystery to science.
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Needles may provide an alternative stimulus, and therefore stop people from feeling the pain in the same way. Placebo/suggestion, and just helping the patient to relax, may also be important (people have, for example, had some dental work done with just hypnosis). Another possibility is that people might just be able to tolerate the pain of the dental work: for example, there's anecdotes of people who will undergo dental work without anaesthetic cause they're more scared of needles; also, before the development of anaesthetic, people did tolerate extractions etc...
 
I asked my Dentist once, what did they do before Nitrous and Novacaine? Because I am really sensitive to tooth pain, I couldn't imagine having any of that stuff done in mouth without it.

He said they got the patient drunk!
 
robinson said:
I don't know. The studies and evidence that it can be used for surgery and tooth extraction, is a little hard to dismiss as placebo effect. Especially when they use animals. How can that be? Just by using needles (whether they are electrostimulated or hand stimulated), how can that stop pain?

As in real pain, like dental work? That is a real mystery to science.
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Not really. You want a mystery, how does music help with dental pain?

Pain is always subjective for one. so there would need to be a good reason to remove subjective component of how much something hurts
 
robinson said:
What evidence will you accept? That is always the question in these matters.
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Well conducted studies of course. The other thing to remember is that news reports of scientific discoveries are very bad sources for what the scientists actually found.

Look at the homeopathy thread talking about cough medicine for examples
 
robinson said:
What would you consider a well conducted study?
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One with enough precautions against bias through good methodology that it can be used as real evidence. For example the studies that show how effective homeopathy is with animals do not count, and similar studies with acupuncture would not count either.

You have never mentioned what you think of homeopathy? Why do you like acupuncture but discount homeopathy so quickly?
 
ponderingturtle said:
One with enough precautions against bias through good methodology that it can be used as real evidence. For example the studies that show how effective homeopathy is with animals do not count, and similar studies with acupuncture would not count either.
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What do you consider enough precautions against bias through good methodology that it can be used as real evidence?

Why do you say studies that show how effective homeopathy is with animals do not count? Ditto for acupuncture.


ponderingturtle said:
Why do you like acupuncture but discount homeopathy so quickly?
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I never said I liked acupuncture. Quit trying to put words in my mouth. You could lose a finger. As to your question

ponderingturtle said:
You have never mentioned what you think of homeopathy?
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ponderingturtle said:
Why do you like acupuncture but discount homeopathy so quickly?
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WTF?
 
robinson said:
I don't know. The studies and evidence that it can be used for surgery and tooth extraction, is a little hard to dismiss as placebo effect.
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When has acupuncture been used for surgery without other anesthetics? Citations please.

robinson said:
Especially when they use animals. How can that be?
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That's easy to explain. Who decides if the animal was sick? Who decides if the animal got better? The animal can't talk, so a human has to decide. Show me a positive acupuncture study where the human making those decisions was blind to the therapies being applied.
 
Sheldon Altman, "Small Animal Acupuncture: Scientific Basis and Clinical Applications," in Allen M. Schoen and Susan G. Wynn (eds.), Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine: Principles and Practice, Mosby, St. Louis, 1998, p. 147.
 
robinson said:
Sheldon Altman, "Small Animal Acupuncture: Scientific Basis and Clinical Applications," in Allen M. Schoen and Susan G. Wynn (eds.), Complementary and Alternative Veterinary Medicine: Principles and Practice, Mosby, St. Louis, 1998, p. 147.
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You've read this? What was the study? Describe it.

Alternatively, where can I read it online?
 
Acupuncture Reduces Pain After Breast Surgery
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/10/011016070408.htm

Stimulation of the wrist acupuncture point P6 for preventing postoperative nausea and vomiting
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003281.html

A small clinical trial recently found acupuncture was effective in reducing the number of hot flashes men experienced after prostate cancer hormonal therapy. There is also some evidence that acupuncture may lessen the need for pain medicines. A study of headache sufferers compared acupuncture with standard medical treatment. Those treated with acupuncture used less pain medicines and missed fewer work days. However, some recent studies of acupuncture have had mixed or uncertain results. Part of the problem is that it’s hard to come up with good control procedures (sham acupuncture) for scientific comparisons.
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http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Acupuncture.asp

Since sham acupuncture is vital for a double blind, a good device has been created and used.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060206233120.htm

Duke University, of all places, uses a sham device, but also uses rats! And claims results!
http://www.acupuncture.com/newsletters/m_aug06/res.htm

The Efficacy of Acupuncture in the Treatment of Temporomandibular Joint Myofascial Pain
http://www.acupuncture.com/newsletters/m_dec06/res.htm

This is most unreasonable. I don't believe in acupuncture, and even if they did a hundred studies and proved it beyond all doubt, hard science, I still wouldn't want it done on me.
 
robinson said:
Acupuncture Reduces Pain After Breast Surgery
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/10/011016070408.htm

Stimulation of the wrist acupuncture point P6 for preventing postoperative nausea and vomiting
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003281.html

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3X_Acupuncture.asp

Since sham acupuncture is vital for a double blind, a good device has been created and used.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060206233120.htm

Duke University, of all places, uses a sham device, but also uses rats! And claims results!
http://www.acupuncture.com/newsletters/m_aug06/res.htm

The Efficacy of Acupuncture in the Treatment of Temporomandibular Joint Myofascial Pain
http://www.acupuncture.com/newsletters/m_dec06/res.htm

This is most unreasonable. I don't believe in acupuncture, and even if they did a hundred studies and proved it beyond all doubt, hard science, I still wouldn't want it done on me.
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Oh I'm sorry, I thought you were replying to my two questions of yesterday:
  1. When has acupuncture been used for surgery without other anesthetics? Citations please.
  2. Show me a positive acupuncture study where the human making those decisions was blind to the therapies being applied.
As I was implying, I don't believe either of these have been shown.
 
OK - Thats fantastic - one study that seesm to prove acupuncture is more effective than placebo.

Now someone needs to replicate it. Who wants to bet?
 
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