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A dialogue on acupuncture

robinson said:
Hmmm... acupuncture is not listed as paranormal (http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#2.2), so I would hazard even Randi accepts it as real.
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Clearly, sticking needles in someone isn't - in itself - paranormal, and will have (at least some) physical effects - although whether these effects are significant or useful is another matter. Some beliefs associated with acupuncture - chi moving through the body, for example - are paranormal.

I'd agree that studies provide at least reasonably compelling evidence that sticking needles in people can sometimes provide some health benefits. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that we need to bother with acupuncture - it could be that there's one or two points on the body where it's best to stick needles for any complaint this can treat, for example.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Please provide any practitioners to limit themselves to practices that have been shown to have any validity in a scientific setting?
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What? How does that reply to my comment about a scientific study, showing that acupuncture, in regards to pain, was shown to work? Or that some people don't want to accept scientific evidence?
 
jon said:
Some beliefs associated with acupuncture - chi moving through the body, for example - are paranormal.
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While the ancients had pretty out there theories about energy and how it moved through the body, science tells us that energy does indeed move through the body. In all kinds of ways. What we don't really know yet, is how acupuncture works. We know it does work (in some regards, the testing is still going on), but not how.

Don't get me wrong, my one experience with acupuncture was horrible, and I considered it a bunch of crap for many years. But recent studies have shown that in some regards, it does work.
 
robinson said:
What? How does that reply to my comment about a scientific study, showing that acupuncture, in regards to pain, was shown to work? Or that some people don't want to accept scientific evidence?
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The problem is that people say that this proves that this shows acupuncture works. So it must work when people use it to treat infertility[/quote].

Saying acupuncture works from this is like saying aspirin cures disease, so it must be the right treatment for everything, because the acupuncturists will tell you it works for everything.

What about the whole yin or yang excess causeing the arthritis by the way?
 
robinson said:
While the ancients had pretty out there theories about energy and how it moved through the body, science tells us that energy does indeed move through the body. In all kinds of ways. What we don't really know yet, is how acupuncture works. We know it does work (in some regards, the testing is still going on), but not how.
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Yes and these energies/humours are Sanguine, Melancholic, Choleric and Phlegmatic. After all 2000 years of medicine can't be wrong.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And show me acupuctarists [sic] who follow that and limit their claims to things that can be supported.
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Why do you keep asking me to show you stuff? I AGREE that there is a good chance MOST acupuncturist are deluded about what it can or cannot do. That doesn't change the SCIENTIFIC study of what it can do.
 
robinson said:
While the ancients had pretty out there theories about energy and how it moved through the body, science tells us that energy does indeed move through the body. In all kinds of ways.
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Sure, energy moves through the body - but not afaik in such a way as to validate (most) beliefs around chi. Have scientists ever denied that energy (heat etc.) moves through the body?

robinson said:
What we don't really know yet, is how acupuncture works. We know it does work (in some regards, the testing is still going on), but not how.
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There's evidence that sticking needles in people can help with some conditions (though it would still be good to see studies repeated before we 'know' this works). However, this doesn't show that acupuncture works. This evidence might suggest a move - for example - to train some hospital staff in 'needle sticking': how to safely stick a needle or two in a patient's body, and then twirl it round a bit to produce the desired effects. However, I don't see the evidence to justify a more complex process of acupuncture.
 
robinson said:
WTF? I am talking about scientific concepts of energy, not woo stuff.
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What sort of energy then? How does this effect the chemical reactions that exist between cells? As the most recent nerve explanations I have seen have put all interaction between them at a chemical level and internal to the nerve at the electrical level.

The energies that are talked about are entirely woo, it might have an effect but that would not be becuase of manipulating energy, but because of physiological effects.
 
robinson said:
Why do you keep asking me to show you stuff? I AGREE that there is a good chance MOST acupuncturist are deluded about what it can or cannot do. That doesn't change the SCIENTIFIC study of what it can do.
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And I would have put an additional group in there, one who had needles put in at the wrong points to effect the knee and see what happened.
 
I will admit that I was surprised to learn that acupuncture works at all, in any way. I still find it hard to believe.
 
ponderingturtle said:
And I would have put an additional group in there, one who had needles put in at the wrong points to effect the knee and see what happened.
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Uhh... that was part of the study.

On joining the study, patients' pain and knee function were assessed using standard arthritis research survey instruments and measurement tools, such as the Western Ontario McMasters Osteoarthritis Index (WOMAC). Patients' progress was assessed at 4, 8, 14, and 26 weeks. By week 8, participants receiving acupuncture were showing a significant increase in function and by week 14 a significant decrease in pain, compared with the sham and control groups.
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iirc, the 'sham' was making patients think that a needle was being inserted, but not actually inserting the needle and manipulating it as you do in acupuncture. The study therefore indicated that sticking a needle in could be more effective than pretending to stick a needle in, but didn't show that it mattered where you put the needle.

Inserting the needle - as you do in acupuncture - in a non-acupuncture point would have been a good additional control. However, because there have been so many acupuncture points 'discovered' as the treatment developed, and there's only so many safe bits of the body to stick a needle, this is harder than you'd think to do...
 
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robinson said:
Uhh... that was part of the study.
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No they shamed the feel of a needle going into the right part, that was one of the three groups, they did not have a group where the needles where put into the wrong spot.

So putting a needle might have done something, but if it is on the right meridian or not does that matter?
 
jon said:
iirc, the 'sham' was making patients think that a needle was being inserted, but not actually inserting the needle and manipulating it as you do in acupuncture. The study therefore indicated that sticking a needle in could be more effective than pretending to stick a needle in, but didn't show that it mattered where you put the needle.

Inserting the needle - as you do in acupuncture - in a non-acupuncture point would have been a good additional control. However, because there have been so many acupuncture points 'discovered' as the treatment developed, and there's only so many safe bits of the body to stick a needle, this is harder than you'd think to do...
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I think putting the needle into a point on a different meridian that should not improve the condition would be a acceptable method of control.
 
As to my psoriasis in my last post.
http://www.webmd.com/hw/psoriasis/hw58471.asp
http://www.psoriasis.org/research/known/immune.php

Cyclosporine worked well on my psoriasis but it is newer treatment for psoriasis. The medication has been around since 1979 and has other uses. Doctors/dermatologists hate to prescribe it because it suppresses the immune system. cough/cough.

Methotrexate is the standard treatment. It did not work well for me.

Acupuncture did the same as Methotrexate for me in terms of visable change which was some.
 
ponderingturtle said:
I think putting the needle into a point on a different meridian that should not improve the condition would be a acceptable method of control.
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Yep, it *should* be a reasonable test - but sadly not all folks pushing alt med are reasonable.
 
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