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Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

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Strathcona Provincial Park is a popular hiking area,
Hiking area. Hikers stick to trails and tracks. I know. I am an avid hiker myself.
and is hiked constantly all summer by Park Rangers.
Are the park rangers constantly going cross country off trail up hill and down valley through dense forest, or are they largely sticking to trails and tracks??
It is not that isolated as one may think it is.
Vancouver Island in general has a small population of people and vast areas of uninhabited terrain. I would consider the likes of Strathcona remote and rugged.
 
The last grizzly I saw a few years ago was only about 130 kms north of the US border. Since they know no border, it is reasonable to assume they stretch into Washington State as well. The first one on Vancouver Island was shot about 3 years ago. They were doing DNA testing to figure out exactly where in BC it came from, but I haven't heard the results.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.
 
Okay, what's a "Jacko"?
Really? I was sure you'd be familiar with that. Jacko is the name of what some proponents contend was a juvenile sas captured in BC in 1884 buy rail workers. http://www.bigfootencounters.com/creatures/jacko.htm
I think it's possible they were suscepible to the invaders' diseases; there are areas that had very early reports, then nohing for decades, then reports again. Encroachment on their territory would reduce populations. We're dealing with an animal that has a huge personal territory and doesn't "live" in any one place. They're largely noctunal. Not many people have been actively hunting them.
I just think that if we have a real animal that is so ubiquitous in native legend that there should have been more contact with early settlers, pioneers, and colonists. That's not to say that there aren't accounts but I just think that at sometime in the last 400 years one would end up on the wrong end of the rifle like everything else.
It took Goodall a year to locate her troop, and they were in one valley, known to exist, and she had funding.
Can't argue much with that. (I won't, anyway.)
How're they doing with the Bili Ape project?
I haven't read up on it in the last few months but the last time I checked dealing with poachers was one of the main problems.
 
Just what are you talking about?
What I mean to say is that while you've made some IMO salient points and I respect the tenacity with which you make your case you devalue and detract from your position by posting silly obviously hoaxed trailcam pics and describing them as 'intriguing'. JMHO
 
Not me. I don't go to the BFRO. I stopped going there a long time ago. I write what I do based on my OWN feelings. If those feelings are similar to some of the views of the BFRO then it is mere coincidence and nothing more. From what I have established, quite a number of people share those same feelings. Huntster here is a prime example.
Fair enough. It was the wording I found similar but I'll chalk it up to coincidence. I too stopped keeping up on the BFRO's database primarily from an acute sense of having my intelligence insulted but it is good for a laugh now and then. I think it'd make a good sociology study.

As for the rest of your post I guess I just feel that there are some filtration issues in how you assign credibility to reports and that's related to why I asked Lu what she felt sas' range is.
 
Yes. This is Strathcona Provincial Park.

[qimg]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/799047/strath2.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/799047/ca1-m0368a_t.jpg[/qimg]
[qimg]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/799047/3_moyeha_valley.gif[/qimg]

Away from tracks and hiking trails, I have to wonder how many people regularly traipse cross country here into the dense forests. This is an example of a remote, rugged wilderness area which has garnered sasquatch reports either in it or adjacent to it.

I'd also wonder how many folks here have actually been in wilderness areas like this? Then if they have I would like them to think back and remember what they actually did in wilderness areas such as this. How far off a beaten track/trial did they traverse? How far from their parked car/truck did they traverse? Did they go off into dense forest? How far? If so, for what reason?
Gorgeous photos. I always wanted to retire in Tofino and make my kid look for sas with me. Then I joined this board and got all cranky.
 
What I mean to say is that while you've made some IMO salient points and I respect the tenacity with which you make your case you devalue and detract from your position by posting silly obviously hoaxed trailcam pics and describing them as 'intriguing'. JMHO

I didn't post any trail cam pics. Again, what are you talking about?
 
Really? I was sure you'd be familiar with that. Jacko is the name of what some proponents contend was a juvenile sas captured in BC in 1884 buy rail workers. http://www.bigfootencounters.com/creatures/jacko.htmI just think that if we have a real animal that is so ubiquitous in native legend that there should have been more contact with early settlers, pioneers, and colonists. That's not to say that there aren't accounts but I just think that at sometime in the last 400 years one would end up on the wrong end of the rifle like everything else.Can't argue much with that. (I won't, anyway.)I haven't read up on it in the last few months but the last time I checked dealing with poachers was one of the main problems.

I'm familiar with the Jacko story. I first read it in 1968. I wasn't sure what you were asking. Did I answer the question?

There's a 1793 newspaper story about an encounter with "giants" in NC.

Green had five reports of shootings and there are reportedly some under investigation now.

Aside from Eric Rudolf, General Lee managed to sneak an army of 70,000 through these hills. Cherokee avoided removal by hiding for years in Snowbird. Thanks to the National forests these areas are just about as unpopulated as they were back then, and they flow right into Georgia.

I didn't realize how wild it is until I got out of the car.

Despite what the rangers say, there are Mountain Lions.
 
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Hiking area. Hikers stick to trails and tracks. I know. I am an avid hiker myself.
Are the park rangers constantly going cross country off trail up hill and down valley through dense forest, or are they largely sticking to trails and tracks??

Vancouver Island in general has a small population of people and vast areas of uninhabited terrain. I would consider the likes of Strathcona remote and rugged.
Park rangers I have known were behind desks at the visitor centers or in their vehicles, mostly.

Great pics. I was there once with my parents when I was little, but I don't think we got far from the hotel.

"Strathcona Provincial Park is a rugged mountain wilderness of over 250,000 hectares that dominates central Vancouver Island. Created in 1911, Strathcona is the oldest provincial park in BC and the largest on Vancouver Island. The triangular shaped park practically spans the entire width of Vancouver Island, in that it borders on Herbert Inlet off Clayoquot Sound on the Pacific Coast, and extends eastwards to within 13 kilometres of the sea near Comox."

http://www.vancouverisland.com/parks/?id=411

"What all these trails have in common, is a need for their users to be able to look after themselves. Telephones, ranger cabins and trail checks are almost non-existent - and that's the attraction of hiking the wilderness areas of Vancouver Island! So, be well prepared, carry a map and emergency supplies - especially rainwear and a flashlight. Remember, away from the road it's a wilderness.... and it sure is beautiful country!"

http://www.vancouverisland.com/Trails/
 

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Originally Posted by Huntster
Correct. The major player that the media was focused on upon DuChaillu's return (1859) was Darwin and his book "Origin of Species", published in November of 1859. There was no issue with science or gorillas before that. Nobody gave a damn about gorillas, science, or Thomas Savage. Enter DuChaillu's book in 1861, complete with his claims of complete gorilla carcasses, along with other wild adventures in the African interior (pygmys, natural wonders, etc) two years after Darwin shook the scientific/religious worlds with his theory.

Thus, his problems were not related to the "discovery" of gorillas. They can not be compared with bigfoot's situation, specially because there were gorilla specimens avaliable...[/quote]

Perhaps not the "discovery" of the gorilla, but producing the first complete gorilla specimen at a time when people didn't want gorillas produced.

Originally Posted by Huntster
The skepticism of DuChaillu was sourced in the public, fired up over the new ideology.

And once again, it was actually because somehow he got caught in the fire exchange between evolutionists and "steady-statists" (creationists). Not because he championed the idea "gorillas are real creatures". No paralell with bigfeet situation. Specially because there were avaliable gorilla specimens.

There were a very few partial gorilla specimens. Several skulls and a few other bones, and not even a complete skeleton.

DuChaillu delivered the first complete carcass to the west.

Originally Posted by Huntster
DuChaillu provided a complete corpse. Evidence doesn't get stronger than that.

And there were already specimens avaliable and published papers on the animals at both sides of the Atlantic. The existence of gorillas was not being discussed.

And there is lots of discussion and published papers regarding sasquatches today, as well as unidentifed DNA on record, at least one good film, and a number of footprint casts.

Originally Posted by Huntster
When the "Jacko" event occurred in British Columbia in 1884, the people of the area thought Jacko was a gorilla. How would they know differently? Nobody in western North America had seen a gorilla in 1884..

From 1847 untill 1884 there was plenty of time for people get used to their image using books and newspapers.

Please list the books and newspapers which provided those "images." I'd be especially interested in those prior to DuChaillu's return. I'd like to see what was "built" using just a skull and a few bones.

Originally Posted by Huntster
There is a very common link.

Denialism which has nothing to do with science or the evidence.

You know, "denialism" claims won't take you nowhere...

Correct. It doesn't take you anywhere, either.

In fact, it takes us all nowhere.

The comparsion between gorillas' "discovery" by science and bigfoot does not stands because there was no controversy surrounding the presentation of the species, the evidence presented to back it was not "denied".

It stands because of the long history of legends of both creatures which have followed a near identical parallel, it stands because in both cases the "scientists" were sitting on their asses in ivy covered buildings pontificating to themselves while adventurers were out in the field discovering things, and it stands because ideological controversies affect both.
 
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If the estimates of many that there are 200 black bears per sasquatch, then there are approximately 3,000 sasquatches in North America.

Huntster, I'm not gonna be the one to doubt your bear knowledge and I'm sure I could speculate but you know I want to ask how those many arrive at that estimation.

They "estimated." I suppose those estimates are built upon the frequency of sightings/footprints/etc, but I really don't know.

However, if that 200:1 ratio is used to estimate sasquatch populations, it shows just how rare they are, and it illustrates how there could be sightings and footprints at such an infrequent frequency from the general public, but also how such a creature could avoid capture and/or exposure to the few actually out looking for them.

Huntster, I would certainly agree after what you said that were sas a real species they must certainly be rarer than brown bears. Therefore, if footage of black bears taking salmon is rather rare than one could surmise the likelyhood of getting sas doing it would be that much more difficult.

There are "an estimated" 310,000 black bears along the US/Canadian Pacific Coast states/provinces (California, Oregon, Washington, British Columbia, Alaska).

Brown bears?:

There are about 200,000 brown bears in the world. The largest populations are in Russia, with 120,000, the United States, with 32,500, and Canada with 21,750. 95% of the brown bear population in the United States is in Alaska.....

With that bit of knowledge, google up photos of bears fishing for salmon. The vast majority will be photos of brown bears, not black bears, fishing for salmon, even though they are exponentially more rare.

There are several reasons for that, but the point is that even though sasquatches likely utilized salmon runs (like black bears and brown bears alike), that doesn't necessarily mean that they will congregate in open areas doing so for their photos to get snapped.

P.S. Hunts, where was it that you were discuss sas activity on an Alaskan island near to the Kodiak islands? Am I mistaken?

I had compared sasquatch reports on Prince of Wales Island in SE Alaska to Kodiak Island. Both islands are large (#2 and #3 largest under the U.S. flag), both islands have significant salmon runs, have a similar population, and that population is predominately native.

POW Island is densely forested, has a very high density of sasquatch reports, as well as native lore about them, has no brown bears at all, and has one of the highest black bear densities in North America.

Kodiak Island is not densely forested, has one of the highest brown bear densities on Earth, has no black bears at all, has no sasquatch reports, and no native sasquatch lore.

I still await a "skeptic" to explain why all those things are true.
 
[qimg]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-8/799047/3_moyeha_valley.gif[/qimg]

....I'd also wonder how many folks here have actually been in wilderness areas like this? Then if they have I would like them to think back and remember what they actually did in wilderness areas such as this. How far off a beaten track/trial did they traverse? How far from their parked car/truck did they traverse? Did they go off into dense forest? How far? If so, for what reason?

One more point I'd like to make about that valley:

Once you're in a forest like that, you won't be able to see more than a hundred yards in any direction, if that.
 
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There are several reasons for that, but the point is that even though sasquatches likely utilized salmon runs (like black bears and brown bears alike), that doesn't necessarily mean that they will congregate in open areas doing so for their photos to get snapped.


Not necessarily ? No kidding..:rolleyes:



I had compared sasquatch reports on Prince of Wales Island in SE Alaska to Kodiak Island. Both islands are large (#2 and #3 largest under the U.S. flag), both islands have significant salmon runs, have a similar population, and that population is predominately native.

POW Island is densely forested, has a very high density of sasquatch reports, as well as native lore about them, has no brown bears at all, and has one of the highest black bear densities in North America.

Kodiak Island is not densely forested, has one of the highest brown bear densities on Earth, has no black bears at all, has no sasquatch reports, and no native sasquatch lore.

I still await a "skeptic" to explain why all those things are true.
Explain what ?

Do you find that people are skeptical about any of those things ?

I'm not.. They all sound completely plausible to me.
 
Park rangers I have known were behind desks at the visitor centers or in their vehicles, mostly.

You know LAL, thinking about it, that is my experience too. I've yet to come across a park ranger on foot on a hiking trail. Every single time I have encountered park rangers away from their booths they have always been in their vehicles. Now, Im not saying this is what they always or only do but in my experience it has always been the case.

Huntster,

Yes indeed. Nevermind actually going off trail, in dense forests like in the above pics you can't even see too far off trail. Spot on as always. Now, if sasquatch was a grassland/steppe creature it might be different (LOL) but unfortunately it isn't.
 
Not that it's a big deal but I think you and LAL are at variance here.

I would say so. However, even though I am not totally convinced that sasquatch are in other areas I do find some areas interesting. I wouldn't write it off and dismiss it completely (and I admit to knowing less about the subject of sasquatch elsewhere than LAL does) but as I said before I find it neater and more logical to concentrate on the idea of sasquatch in the PNW, south east Alaska, BC and western Alberta areas than being widespread over many different states in the east and south of the U.S.
 
The search engine right now does not seems to be able to recover the old posts. But this is no problem, I can reproduce it all quite easilly and also use the opportunity to show why his answer does not touches any of the issues I raised. As always, I'll try to make it as simple as possible. However, the credits of the pictures are at the original posts and unfortunately I no longer have them.

First, lets start with some comparsions:
Here we have, at the upper part pics from real flexible feet. At the lowermost part, some well-known casts of alleged bigfeet footprints.
midtarsalbreaks.jpg

Here's a comparsion between feet of humans and great apes.
real_brakes1.jpg

Note the completely different toe architecture and feet shapes. Flexible feet are associated with long, prehnsile and opposing toes. None of these features are seen at the alleged bigfoot footprints, that look like enlarged human feet.

Now lets make another comparsion. Here we have a comparsion between footprints of Homo, chimps and australopithecines. Note the footprints from chimps and australopithecines share similar features when it comes to toe shape and disposition, and that both are quite diferent from the ehxibited by humans and the alleged bigfoot footprints. Australopithecines were bipedals, but they did not ventured too far from trees, and still spent a lot of times at them, sleeping, foraging, resting, escaping from predators, etc. Thus, from an evolutionary point of view, it makes sense to have prehnsile feet. Not only helps climbing but its also an usefull to have an extra pair of hands in such an environment.

Homo, the only known fully bipedal (and large) primate that are not partially arboricolal do not have these flexible and prehnsile feet. Why? Because from an evolutionary perspective, it makes no sense to have such features. Such feet do not allow an efficient transmittion to the ground of the energy produced by the muscles. Its a conclusion driven by the lever and/or torque principles.
torqueXmeldrum.jpg

The extra joint of bigfoot's feet would render this "foot model" much more inneficient when it comes to energy transmittion to the ground. Imagine two simplified model, using the yellow lines from the diagram above as rods and the yellow circles with a red dot inside as hinges. Now put the human foot model over a table and move it. Repeat with the bigfoot's. The bigfoot's foot model has an extra hinge, its work is more complicated, less efficient, requires more energy to work and has an extra wear point.

Bottomline: for a large bipedal primate that no longer spends long periods over the trees, the "rigid" foot is more efficient. No wonder it was the solution "adopted" by Homo.

Now lets's check meldrum's answer.

Neto clearly has no concept of the calculation of the mechanical advantage of the triceps surae (calf musculature) as evidenced by his comments and attempt to diagram his point.Humans have departed from this pattern by adopting a fixed arch.
And this mechanical advantage would be?
Hard to see any advantage, since part of the energy produced by the calf musclue would not be efficiently transmitted to the ground due to the presence of an extra joint.

Humans departed from this pattern because humans evolved towards a bipedal locomotion and a lifestyle that no longer required spending long times at tree tops. Flexible feet no longer were needed and became a disavantage, thus the fixed arches at our feet.

The model of the sasquatch foot is a very natural extension of trends displayed in a size-graded sample of ape feet from gibbons to chimps to lowland gorillas to mountain gorillas, not only in relative elongation of the heel but in lessened divergence of the great toe.
All the mentioned known animals are adapted to lifestyles that spend long times over trees. And their feet are very different from what bigfoot's feet are supposed to be. The same is valid for their lifestyles.

The MT break has little to do with the loss of divegence of the big toe, until the fixation of the arch, at which point the aligned big toe becomes the distal support of the arch. There are a number of interacting modifications at play during the evolution of the modern human foot.
Mid-foot flexibility has to do with prehnsile feet, an adaptation for tree climbing. It makes no sense to have human-like toes and a articulated arch. Both are nice to have if you still make a lot of tree-climbing. But the flexible foot makes no sense when you no longer are a tree-hugger. Evolutionary pressures from a bipedal locomotion style shaped our feet - and should also have shaped those from bigfeet (assuming they are real). And since similar problems result in similar solutions...

And, at last but no least, non-flexible feet do generate impressions similar to those shown as evidence for mid tarsal feet. And since there are no evidence bigfeet are real...

It all boils down to mid tarsal breaks reasonings failing to provide backing to the claim bigfeet are real.
 
Perhaps not the "discovery" of the gorilla, but producing the first complete gorilla specimen at a time when people didn't want gorillas produced.
Do you have any evidence that people didn't wanted gorillas produced back then?

I find this quite unlikely, since naturalists from both sides accepted the species as real.

There were a very few partial gorilla specimens. Several skulls and a few other bones, and not even a complete skeleton.

DuChaillu delivered the first complete carcass to the west.
Huntster, the TYPE specimens were provided by Savage. Type specimens should be good enough when it comes to preservation to allow a description of the genus or species and future studies.


And there is lots of discussion and published papers regarding sasquatches today, as well as unidentifed DNA on record, at least one good film, and a number of footprint casts.
Got a specimen?
Got reliable pictures or stills?
No.

And we've been to the "unidentified DNA" issue. Its useless.

Please list the books and newspapers which provided those "images." I'd be especially interested in those prior to DuChaillu's return. I'd like to see what was "built" using just a skull and a few bones.
Oh, the very books from DuChaillu or his caricatures could provide the imagery source...
http://www.peopleplayuk.org.uk/coll..._of_the_attic/music_sheet_covers/default.php?

Or Sir Richard Burton's book...
Two Trips to Gorilla Land & the Cataracts of the Congo
http://cyberread.com/info/15990/fis...o_gorilla_landand_the_cataracts_of_the_congo/

Correct. It doesn't take you anywhere, either.

In fact, it takes us all nowhere.
Then,what about dropping the "denialist" line?

It stands because of the long history of legends of both creatures which have followed a near identical parallel, it stands because in both cases the "scientists" were sitting on their asses in ivy covered buildings pontificating to themselves while adventurers were out in the field discovering things, and it stands because ideological controversies affect both.
Nope.
The situations were completely diferent.
And many of the scientists only sitted at their ivory towers after making a lot of field research. One word: Beagle.

The complains against "scientists at ivory towers" are also useless and won't help your cause.
 
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