Bigfoot - The Patterson-Gimlin Film

[LAL]

Check my post (#533) in the other thread. I'll consider this counterpoint. Some good points to consider but given the scantness of Gigantopithecus' fossil record we can take things a step further- why bind ourselves and place our chips on Giganto when we simply need to surmise a candidate thus far not represented? Because it's quite meaningless in addressing the question at hand. Searching for an ancestor to fill sas' shoes doesn't distract from the fact we can't find sas.By your reasoning above (I don't have any objections) are you suggesting some form of Giganto as the progenitor for Hibagon?

I'm new to the Hibagon, but why not? I can't say I saw much habitat from the Bullet, but then I wasn't looking.

There seem to be affinities with Australopithecines. I don't have a problem with a really robust robustus, but at least we have evidence Giganto was within shooting distance of the Bering Land Bridge and it was somewhat huge. The wide jaw may indicate it was a biped.

Weidenreich thought Giganto was in our line because of the humanlike teeth.

Check this out:

http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/giganto.html

I don't think we can't find sas. They get found rather often, just not by people equipped to make a kill or capture or write a paper for peer review.

 

[Correa Neto]

On Alki beach, maybe. Try that on a firm substrate.

Define "firm substrate".

Read Meldrum on mistaken beartracks. He makes the difference quite clear.

Oh, really? He changed his mind about a certain track we discussed here a lot of times?

There are many examples of prints showing articulating toes. One print viewed in a photo doesn't mean much. It's the variation over a distance that's of interest.

Easy to fake.

Think a bit about the variation with distance. Its not hard to see how it can be faked, purposedly or not.

A tip: look at my answer for you when you said all prints from fakefeet in snow would look the same.

Got a convincing fake foot?

Have you noticed the pics I posted some time ago showing "mid-tarsal breaks" and "hourglass shapes"?

Real human feet made them. Here they are, again:

Look, its gravel! Very firm substrate! Imagine the weight of the creature!
Reality:
1.82m tall "bigfoot" weighting 83kg and wearing Caterpillar boots.

Look! Two walking together! Hourglass shapes, mid tarsal breaks and casted over volcanic ash!
Reality:
Footprints from people who walked over volcanic ash from Vesuvius's Pompeii eruption.

Those pics could well be at most bigfoot sites as being the real stuff.

They'e not chimps or gorillas, but see below.

No, what are they supposed to be?
Real-life primates with flexible feet have feet morphology very different from alleged bigfoot feet. Real-life bipedal primates adapted to walk long distances have rigid feet. Real-life bipedal primates that still spent some times at trees and were not yet fully adapted to bipedalism (at least when it comes to frequent long-distance walks like bigfeet are supposed to make) still had some foot flexiblity, but the anatomy of they feet was different from the inferred for bigfoot's feet.

My interpretation of the anatomy of bigfoot's feet based on the footprints? Carved from wood.

Meldrum himself shot you down on that one. Shall I find the post?

Oh, please, be my guest! Show us where he "shot me down"!

But make sure to include the posts where I exposed my point and where I say why I found his answer unsatisfactory.

How many of these have you seen?

The examples that are avaliable at the www, books and documentaries.
And?

He cast the prints. Was he supposed to tackle the printmaker?

So, that's it all about?

Casting prints?

No effort to get beter evidence?

If I were a wildlife biologist convinced the critters are real and living near my house, I would go much deeper.

There are intriguing trail cam pics. Stay tuned.

Like those presented at cryptomundo?

For how song shall I stay tuned?

For how long are you folks tunned, awaiting for something better than PGF?

I am not holding my breath.

 

[kitakaze]

There are intriguing trail cam pics. Stay tuned.

Intriguing!? Peter, Paul, and Mary! Are you serious? LAL... sad, S-A-D, sad. I struggle to think anyone could not find that pathetic if not hilarious. No offence but that is seriously quite ridiculous.

 

[Correa Neto]

Hey Kitakaze...

Skepticism is strong within you...

Feel the power of the dark side....

Release your scofftcism...

 

[kitakaze]

I'm new to the Hibagon, but why not? I can't say I saw much habitat from the Bullet, but then I wasn't looking.

There seem to be affinities with Australopithecines. I don't have a problem with a really robust robustus, but at least we have evidence Giganto was within shooting distance of the Bering Land Bridge and it was somewhat huge. The wide jaw may indicate it was a biped.

Weidenreich thought Giganto was in our line because of the humanlike teeth.

Check this out:

http://www.uiowa.edu/~bioanth/giganto.html

I don't think we can't find sas. They get found rather often, just not by people equipped to make a kill or capture or write a paper for peer review.

Thanks for the link, that's actually the one I wanted to give carcharodon. Hibagon aside, how long do you think the line of reasoning why sas has and continues to elude us remains plausible? It seems you're thinking of the problem in the terms of present conveniences. Native traditions firmly in mind, can you really assert that sas has unlike any other large mammal endured the entire North American colonization without once getting the short end of the stick without calling a 'Jacko' or at least the slightest amount of reasonable doubt?

 

[Skeptical Greg]

You're yanking our chain , right ?

 

[kitakaze]

Hey Kitakaze...

Skepticism is strong within you...

Feel the power of the dark side....

Release your scofftcism...

Sucker for Star Wars references...

Must resist... No, no. Please... put the trailcam pic away!

Human... avoidance... ensures... survival...

Basic principle... plausi... BULLS#&T!

Wow, these yellow iris' make me look nasty.

 

[kitakaze]

Hey Kitakaze...

Skepticism is strong within you...

Feel the power of the dark side....

Release your scofftcism...

Sucker for Star Wars references...

Must resist... No, no. Please... put the trailcam pic away!

Human... avoidance... ensures... survival...

Basic principle... plausi... BULLS#&T!

Wow, these yellow iris' make me look nasty.

 

[Correa Neto]

To be fair, it is actually possible that sasquatch myth started with Gigantopithecus.

Recently I read an article about ancient constellations, and it seems the Ursa Majoris is present in some Asiatic and North American myths. Its possible that the interpretation of the pattern created by those stars as a bear was carried to the new world by migrating tribes and survived untill nowdays.

It is, thus, possible that if Gigantopithecus cohexisted with some of those tribes in Asia before their migration, the recollections of the animals were stored and preserved as myth.

But this depends on a number of big "ifs". For example:

-We know they cohexisted with Homo habilis, but we don't have reliable evidence oftheir cohexistence with Homo sapiens.
-We are not sure the hairy bipeds from the forests was actually based in Gigantopithecus since there are similar legends all around the world, possibly due to pischological reasons.
-There were many fabulous beasts in the megafauna -North America included. Why they are not also present at the mythology? This raises an issue when it comes to the preservation of the memory.
-The similaritude of the Ursa Majoris myths may as well be a coincidence, sicne the stars that compose it are quite easy to spot. Other cultures, for example, call it a wheelchart.

This, however, is still a far cry from providing actual backing to the current bigfoot myths.

 

[Correa Neto]

Never mind, I suck for Donnie Darko refferences...

But maybe if a jet engine falls over a bigfoot...

 

[LAL]

Thanks for the link, that's actually the one I wanted to give carcharodon. Hibagon aside, how long do you think the line of reasoning why sas has and continues to elude us remains plausible? It seems you're thinking of the problem in the terms of present conveniences. Native traditions firmly in mind, can you really assert that sas has unlike any other large mammal endured the entire North American colonization without once getting the short end of the stick without calling a 'Jacko' or at least the slightest amount of reasonable doubt?

Okay, what's a "Jacko"?

I think it's possible they were suscepible to the invaders' diseases; there are areas that had very early reports, then nohing for decades, then reports again. Encroachment on their territory would reduce populations. We're dealing with an animal that has a huge personal territory and doesn't "live" in any one place. They're largely noctunal. Not many people have been actively hunting them.

It took Goodall a year to locate her troop, and they were in one valley, known to exist, and she had funding.

How're they doing with the Bili Ape project?

 

[LAL]

Define "firm substrate".


Oh, really? He changed his mind about a certain track we discussed here a lot of times?

You mean the one you guys cherry-picked out of a trackway of forty, thus showing you can't tell a half track from a bear track. Even tube said that's no bear track. He's seen the cast. Meldrum explains the difference. You might want to read the book so you won't make the same mistake again.

What pics at Cryptomondo?

Green did experiments too. Fake feet act like snowshoes. They do not impress deeply on a firm surface.

 

[LAL]

Meldrum's Post:

"LAL,

Sorry, but after taking a quick scan through the other lists you are participating in, I don't think it is worth my time to respond more than just briefly to the latest criticisms. They are of a different nature than the points raised by Jim. Neto clearly has no concept of the calculation of the mechanical advantage of the triceps surae (calf musculature) as evidenced by his comments and attempt to diagram his point. The model of the sasquatch foot is a very natural extension of trends displayed in a size-graded sample of ape feet from gibbons to chimps to lowland gorillas to mountain gorillas, not only in relative elongation of the heel but in lessened divergence of the great toe. Humans have departed from this pattern by adopting a fixed arch.

The MT break has little to do with the loss of divegence of the big toe, until the fixation of the arch, at which point the aligned big toe becomes the distal support of the arch. There are a number of interacting modifications at play during the evolution of the modern human foot. (Some people should do the research required before asserting their opinions with such conviction.)

The comments about the casts and footprints illustrated on my webpage and the comaprisons made between the Laverty photo are simply without merit.

The particular cast you asked about is one of Timus's casts."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=14342&st=25&p=300929&#entry300929

That's the one the peanut gallery was claiming is a Wallace fake.

You'll have to find your own answer. I'm not about to search this board for it.

 

[LAL]

More on chimp midtarsal bending:

"Here is a depiction of the plantar pressure recorded for a quadrupedal chimp. The hotter the color the higher the pressure. Note the midtarsal break, which concentrates pressure especially beneath the cuboid."

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.php?showtopic=14342&st=25&p=300705&#entry300705

 

[LAL]

Intriguing!? Peter, Paul, and Mary! Are you serious? LAL... sad, S-A-D, sad. I struggle to think anyone could not find that pathetic if not hilarious. No offence but that is seriously quite ridiculous.

Just what are you talking about?

 

[carcharodon]

carcharodon, while I can't shake the feeling that you're regurgitating what you originally read off the BFRO site

Not me. I don't go to the BFRO. I stopped going there a long time ago. I write what I do based on my OWN feelings. If those feelings are similar to some of the views of the BFRO then it is mere coincidence and nothing more. From what I have established, quite a number of people share those same feelings. Huntster here is a prime example.

you nonetheless have a valid point about wildlife photography.

Thank you.

However, a key element of your arguments concerning bigfoot hinge on the remote element of the equation which I think you know in your heart just doesn't pan out when taking into account that a good portion of reports come from areas unremote.

Like I said, that's if you buy into them. I don't neccesarily and I have already stated this. The good sasquatch reports that persuade me are from remote areas or at the very least they are from locations that border remote areas or lead into remote areas. I don't particularly take much note in reports from, say, Connecticut or suburban New Jersey.LOL

As you've stated previously you're only criteria for weighing the validity of reports is that someone has investigated the report and the witnesses interviewed which IMO is more than lacking.

Exactly, which is why my guestimate is that a lot of sasquatch reports would turn out to be mistaken identity, wishful thinking, hoaxing and genuine misguided belief etc etc. Most, but not all. I take a lot of stock in reports investigated by the likes of Green, Dahinden and more recently Tom Steenburg. Steenburg is no naive fool. I like his approach and he's very thorough.

I'm sure we don't need to scurry over to the recent reports section of the BFRO for a laugh and confirmation, yes.

No, we don't need to. Like I said, I haven't been to the BFRO for ages and I do not tend to keep track of recent reports or follow what the BFRO does. I'm wary of most sasquatch reports in this day and age. It seems to be a lot easier and maybe more fashionable now to report a sasquatch sighting.

Usually, if there is a report which seems to be quite good then it will start to do the rounds and will be noticed elsewhere. Only then will I start to take notice of it. That's not to say I'll buy it, but I will take notice of it. I probably won't beforehand.

 

[carcharodon]

Rock piles ? Let me guess . No identifiable squatch hair in them rock piles.

Like LAL said, I don't think Glen Thomas when up to the rock piles to look for hairs. I believe he got the hell out of there. John Green didn't get there until some years later. I don't imagine any hairs would have remained by then.

One account ?

I'm guessing you didn't read Huntster's post properly, so here are some excepts for you again:


""" Measurements of a more recently dug pit, about 30 yards (27 m) from the aforementioned pit, indicate a depth of 3 feet (91 cm) and a 3-foot (91 cm) diameter. Of interest is the observation that it was dug after 1973, the year that I first visited the site and noted only a few rocks pulled out. By the visible slight weathering, this pit appears to be 10 to 16 years old."""

""Credence is given to this proposition by information regarding similar pits located in the Gifford Pichot National Forest, in the state of Washington. I visited this site on July 7, 1992, with Jack Sullivan and Rip Lytle.

The pits are located in a cluster on a steep-sided ridge that pitches steeply into the Washougal River drainage, a tributary of the Columbia River. Silver Star Mountain, at 4,390 feet (1,335 m) elevation, stands immediately to the north of the site. I counted 15 pits, but I suspect many others are in the vicinity because of extensive talus slopes on adjacent ridges. Rough measurements showed pit depths varying between 1 and 4 feet (30 cm - 1.2 m), and diameters varying from 3 to 9 feet (91 cm - 2.7 m). Natural rock displacement over a long period of time has obliterated the original sizes. These rocks were not weighed or measured, but visual evaluation is comparable to the Oregon excavations....."""

Honestly, I wonder why we bother. Some of you scoftics don't even read the posts you are replying to.

Huntster,carcharodon,
Why don't you start a black bear thread and have at it.

The black bear discussion has now been done.

Meanwhile, where's Squatch ?

In the PNW, BC and southeast Alaska, mostly in places where nobody is looking or even visiting. It's too damn rugged and remote.

There is supposedly breeding stock of several different species ...

Not as far as I know, or consider, there isn't.

 

[carcharodon]

To be fair when Bindernagel says 'in the mountains not far from our home' one should bear in mind that he lives in Tofino on Vancouver Island so the mountains to which he refers wouldn't be the worst place to find sas evidence and the area has a history of reports largely from motorist travelling on the highway between Port Alberni and Tofino/Ucleulet. That's not to say I disagree with the possibility of error.

Yes. This is Strathcona Provincial Park.

Away from tracks and hiking trails, I have to wonder how many people regularly traipse cross country here into the dense forests. This is an example of a remote, rugged wilderness area which has garnered sasquatch reports either in it or adjacent to it.

I'd also wonder how many folks here have actually been in wilderness areas like this? Then if they have I would like them to think back and remember what they actually did in wilderness areas such as this. How far off a beaten track/trial did they traverse? How far from their parked car/truck did they traverse? Did they go off into dense forest? How far? If so, for what reason?

 

[FFed]

Yes, I knew that originally brown bears were widespread (even in England centuries ago). I believe the last brown bear in California was shot in the last century. I didn't know they reach as far south as Vancouver Island on the BC coast now. I initially guessed not much more south than around Prince Rupert.

The last grizzly I saw a few years ago was only about 130 kms north of the US border. Since they know no border, it is reasonable to assume they stretch into Washington State as well. The first one on Vancouver Island was shot about 3 years ago. They were doing DNA testing to figure out exactly where in BC it came from, but I haven't heard the results.

 

[FFed]

Strathcona Provincial Park is a popular hiking area, and is hiked constantly all summer by Park Rangers. It is not that isolated as one may think it is.