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This is the thread that may very well change the way you look at 9/11 FOREVER!

Sir,

A pile of rubble is nothing to me. There is no structure left in the building...it dissolved into a pile of rubble.

Hey, you're the one that said it "dissolved into nothingness"....clearly it didn't.

But back to your original question. I think it's unfair use the word "fire" without any further explaination. There is a huge difference between say, a fire in steel building caused by a faulty coffeemaker and a fire in a steel building caused by a 757 with 10,000 gallons of jet fuel slamming into it at 400mph.

BTW, I'm a rarity around here...a woman. :rolleyes:
 
Hello all,

I KNOW there has been a tremendous debate over the subject of 9/11, and from the few threads I have read it looks like most believe the, "Official Story." Well, here's what I can assure you. If you engage me in this debate, than you will NOT leave this thread without KNOWING that 9/11 was an inside job and brought down by controlled demolitions.

Welcome to the forum. If you have never been here before, lurking or otherwise, than I doubt you know what your in for here. Your chances of convincing any of the frequent posters here that 9/11 was an inside job is slim to nil, but thanks for having the courage to try.

Of course, WTC 7 is and will forever be the smoking gun. I am, of course, referring to 47 story steel-structured building, that dissolved to the ground in mere seconds. I say - DISSOLVED into nothingness, in a mere few seconds. Whether it was 6 or 7 or 8 9 10 seconds...that's not at debate.

It is not a debate, it is a lie. There is plenty of evidence, including photos shown by others above, that WTC7 did not collapse into "nothingnes". Infact, after collapse parts of the vrick facade were in large sections, not "nothingness".

We've all seen the video, and the fact remains...this 47 story steel-structured building literally DISSOLVED in just the blink of an eye....apparently due to a couple fires that were so LARGE they were virtually invisible from the outside. Remember...there is no official report on the cause of WTC 7's collapse.

Are you for real. You really must be new to this board to come in here with this old, debunked garbage. Once again, did not dissolve. Also, besides the LARGE fires that burned un treated, un kept for SEVEN hours, there was a 10-20 storey high Chunk taken out of the South side of the building. This damage was caused by large debris that was ejected during the collapse of the second tower to go. Finally, there is an official report on the cause of the collapse of WTC7, it is called the NIST report on WTC7. There is an Interim version on the NIST website, and the full report is due out soon.

The 911 commission didn't even address it, and if you know anything about a pancake collapse...WTC 7 was NOT a pancake collapse. All 47 stories simply turned into jello all at once. And magically at that. No wait...I mean because of those small fires that melted the entire infrastructure all at once. Yea, that's what I meant to say.

WTC7, in the eyes of the 9/11 commission, and the vast majority of the rest of the world, certainly then, and even today, was NOT RELEVENT to the mandate of the 9/11 commission. It was not struck by a plane, it was not taken down by terrorists. That is why the commission did not address it.

I love jello and magic, but we are not children here, so try to use more grown up terms here. For someone coming in here trying to "Honestly" try to "unite us, your last sentence above seems to stink of sarcasm.

Now, I think one of the main problems people encounter when analyzing an event like this is that they OVER analyze it. Especially since politics are often brought (kicking and screaming) into this discussion...

Spoken like a true non-scientist who is afraid of the facts and evidence. There is no way to over analyze the collapse of these structures. To underanalyze it however, is a common trait of WooWoo.

it's easy for one to loose track of the real issues by dismissing another as a, "Liberal! or NeoCON!" Please, don't be blinded by political bias. In fact, let's just check that at the door. This debate has NOTHING to do with what political party you like to associate yourself with.

Your right, it has nothing to do with the democratic party, which is the one I would support, were I American. Here, in Canada, I actually supported the NDP, which are even further left than the DEMS.

In conjunction: We're NOT debating WHO is responsible for 9/11 in this thread. So, regardless if you do decide to open your mind up to THE truth...it doesn't mean that you're saying or agreeing to who is actually responsible for the demolition of the WTC. The only fact about this event that we shall discuss, is whether or not FIRE was the chief cause of the collapse of WTC 1, 2, 7 or if a controlled demolition is to blame.

Starting off on the wrong foot already. It was a combination of (1) Severing of the exterior and interior core columns by the plane impacts, (2) removal of much of the fireproofing on the columns etc...by the plane impacts, and (3) longstanding fires, superheated by the contents of the buildings that contributed to the eventual collapses of the WTC 1/2 and longstanding fires combines with severe damage from debris in the case of WTC7.

See, I think the main problem with the, 'Debunkers.' is that they never actually debunk this main issue i.e. the buildings came down via a demolition.

The threads here doing just that are too numerous to count.

And the reason they probably haven't presented any actual hard evidence (I'm not talking about an "expert's" commentary or analysis) I'm talking about actual evidence you could present in a court of law that PROVES unequivocally, that demolitions we're NOT used on the WTC buildings.

Do I have to prove that martians didnt bring it down either. Since when do we have to prove what DIDN'T bring it down. ok, I can't prove that God didnt raise his mighty hand and bring it down either.

As for your comment on expert opinions, they are used in courts for both defense and procecution. Typical WooWoo comment to try to avoid or eliminate expert opinion...of course, because all the expert opinion serves the official story, not the CTs. I hope you tell your doctor you dont want his opinion the next time you visit.

And, really this is the only point worth discussing. Sorry, but calling someone a, "Nutjob!" isn't gonna work. I'm only looking for something that could be presented as evidence in a court of law. Let's get REAL left-brained and linear about this...oki doki! You know like Skeptics are SUPPOSE to be! :-)

You are as see through as glass my friend. Trying to sway us from legitimate argument such as expert opinion and analysis by falsly appealing to our reason is juvenile, but, alas, typical.

There is really no point in getting distracted with the small side issues and theories...because it only serves to dilute the whole point of this investigation...and that is to irrefutably prove what caused the buildings to collapse.

see above.

So if we could...I would like to pose a series of simple questions...and all I want for everyone to do is simply respond to the question at hand. If everyone can follow these simple guidelines, than it shouldn't take too long before you will have to accept the fact that the buildings collapsed because of explosives and NOT a fire that melted steel wherein initiating an improbable pancake collapse.

To appease your silliness, I will take the test...

Question 1: Is it possible to prove whether or not (irrefutably) that in the history of the world...a steel-structured building has collapsed as a direct result of a fire? I know we've all heard that this has never happened before 9/11, but is it possible to prove that statement true or false - without a shadow of doubt? And if we can prove whether or not that statement is true, than please give your answer - yay or nay, and present your evidence.

NO. As has been stated in a review of this by NIST, and published in Fire Protection Engineering Magazine...

"Another important finding of this study was the lack of readily available, and well-documented, information on partial or total structural collapse due to fire. Unless the fire event was significant for other reasons, e.g., loss of life, very little information was available. It is recommended that a centralized database be developed, whereby structural damage and collapse can be investigated and systematically reported in the future. The current lack of systematic information on fire-induced collapses seriously limits the profession's understanding of the scope and nature of the real structural fire protection problem." - Fire Protection Engineering MAgazine

http://www.fpemag.com/archives/article.asp?issue_id=27&i=153

Next Question?

TAM;)
 
Not to mention ( I know everyone knows this and will dismiss it) that the actual owner of WTC 7 is on tape...stating, that they made the decision to PULL the building. And, then he said they watched the building come down. "Pull," is an industry term used to describe a controlled demolition.


I assume you've not actually read any of the other threads on this point, which have kicked this myth to death several times over.

It's not an industry term, and even it it was, why would the owner of the building use demolition industry jargon?
 
Sir,

Have you not seen all of the video footage with NYFD on the scene...telling people there was a bomb in the building and to leave the scene? No, the NYFD didn't only THINK or ASSUME it MAY come down. They KNEW it was coming down. And, yes I think there is video footage of Rudy Giuliani telling Peter Jennings that he was told as were others...that the WTC 7 was coming down...BEFORE it came down.

Not to mention ( I know everyone knows this and will dismiss it) that the actual owner of WTC 7 is on tape...stating, that they made the decision to PULL the building. And, then he said they watched the building come down. "Pull," is an industry term used to describe a controlled demolition.
Was there an answer in there? I missed it. Please clarify yourself.
 
Hey, you're the one that said it "dissolved into nothingness"....clearly it didn't.

But back to your original question. I think it's unfair use the word "fire" without any further explaination. There is a huge difference between say, a fire in steel building caused by a faulty coffeemaker and a fire in a steel building caused by a 757 with 10,000 gallons of jet fuel slamming into it at 400mph.

BTW, I'm a rarity around here...a woman. :rolleyes:
Alt=F4, he's discussing WTC7. No plane slammed into WTC7.

ETA: sorry Alt+F4, I guess he is including WTC 1 and WTC2. apologies.
 
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So the firefighters were in on the conspiracy to blow up WTC7? Yes or no would be fine.

Sir,

No they were NOT. They weren't told in secret that the WTC 7 was coming down...they were simply informed...by higher ups, that the building was about to come down. That doesn't in anyway imply they're a part of the demolition.
 
Hello all,

I KNOW there has been a tremendous debate over the subject of 9/11, and from the few threads I have read it looks like most believe the, "Official Story." Well, here's what I can assure you. If you engage me in this debate, than you will NOT leave this thread without KNOWING that 9/11 was an inside job and brought down by controlled demolitions.
This was an interesting opening statement and I was hoping for some new views or more reasonable debate than already seen on this forum.
Of course, WTC 7 is and will forever be the smoking gun. I am, of course, referring to 47 story steel-structured building, that dissolved to the ground in mere seconds. I say - DISSOLVED into nothingness, in a mere few seconds. Whether it was 6 or 7 or 8 9 10 seconds...that's not at debate. We've all seen the video, and the fact remains...this 47 story steel-structured building literally DISSOLVED in just the blink of an eye....apparently due to a couple fires that were so LARGE they were virtually invisible from the outside. <snip>

"couple of fires" What a disappointment, you seem to be just another one enchanted by the conpiracy industrys pruducts. Blah.
 
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Sir,

No they were NOT. They weren't told in secret that the WTC 7 was coming down...they were simply informed...by higher ups, that the building was about to come down. That doesn't in anyway imply they're a part of the demolition.
"Higher Ups" as in fire chiefs?

So how did they know it was coming down?
 
28th Kingdom

Let's just pretend for a moment that no steel structures had fallen due to fire (before 9/11). What does this prove?
 
No they were NOT. They weren't told in secret that the WTC 7 was coming down...they were simply informed...by higher ups, that the building was about to come down. That doesn't in anyway imply they're a part of the demolition.

Where is your evidence that ANY member of the FDNY was told this? Everyone knew WTC 7 was going to collapse it was reported all day.
 
Sir,

No they were NOT. They weren't told in secret that the WTC 7 was coming down...they were simply informed...by higher ups, that the building was about to come down. That doesn't in anyway imply they're a part of the demolition.

Besides your obviously biased opinion and speculation, provide one piece of evidence to prove the above statement you made.

TAM
 
28th Kingdom,

You seem like a decent chap and we are generally most welcoming to decent chaps here.

However, you are rehashing some very old ground with this one and in grave danger of incurring the wrath of the mighty owl himself.

So, instead of educating us to the delights of the CT with regard to WTC7, perhaps you would do well to perhaps open your mind to the possibility that the CT is wrong and to a very large degree those who promote the CT to you are liars.

I'll help you out with my 4 questions posted above, just to get the ball rolling, as it were:

1. Building codes around the world require that structural steel members are protected from fire for given periods of time because steel has a nasty habit of losing it's strength in relatively moderate fires. Steel has the benefit of marvelous structural strength for a given section of steel, so marvelous in fact that the steel members themselves can be quite small given the loads they are required to carry. But the small size of the steel section is it's downfall in fire, because it means it has a very large surface area in relation to it's thickness. In just the same way that a heat sink tries to maximise it's surface area to radiate heat away from an object which must be kept cool, a steel member will become heated rapidly in a fire, unless it is protected from the source of heat. And when a steel member is heated, it loses structural strength and can fail.

2. The principle behind controlled demolition is to cause damage to the structure in such a way that the structure will fail and gravity will cause it to collapse. How that damage is caused could be very methodical and precise (in the case of CD) or random and extreme (in the case of the WTC towers) but the effect can be the same: Catastrophic structural failure.

3. There is no evidence to counter the eye witness statements that the south side was massively damaged

4. There is no evidence to counter the eyewitness and photgraphic evidence that the south side was massively on fire
 
And sir, this is the exact type of logic I am trying to avoid in this thread. That's why I clearly stated...that we're not to discuss who we think is responsible for the demolition. Don't let assumptions like this lead you astray. We must tackle only the actual evidence of this crime scene. Let's not cloud our thinking with motives and suspects...just the facts of the event i.e. three building collapses.

Hi 28th Kingdom, and welcome.

That's a nice sentiment you're espousing, but when you're going to suggest something as radical as an inside job, things don't quite work that way. There really is a parallel to this debate and the the evolution/"intelligent design" one. It's one thing to poke at some of the holes in a scientific theory (even most biologists, I am sure, would agree that evolution, itself an "evolving" theory, does not tell us everything we need to know). But if you're going to toss it out in favor of an extreme alternative, you need a firm foundation to stand on. In the case of ID, saying "a miracle did it" ain't so - it might make for a cozy metaphysical belief, but it's hardly the stuff of the scientific, empirical world.

The same holds true with jumping to conclusions over 9/11. Calling it an inside job creates an enormous domino effect of very unlikely and bizarre questions, and tremendous suspensions of disbelief and "leaps of faith." For instance, there's the question of how WTC7 was prepped for CD without anyone noticing it - a very good question indeed, since it was an active office building and would've required months of preparation, during which time SOMEONE would've had to find something unusual going on. If you're going to propose an inside job as an "alternative explanation," then you do NOT get to just cleanly sidestep questions like that. And if you consider these things for a little bit, it's quickly clear that the idea of WTC7 being brought down by CD is rather nonsensical garbage.

All this makes for a very important lesson in scientific, empirical investigations. I'm sure it's hardly difficult to find things about WTC7 that look unusual to the untrained eye. Consider, though, that it was an unprecedented event - this being the first time in history a 50-story building has ever had two of the world's largest structures collapse right next to it - of COURSE what happens might look a little strange. People rush to these wacky CD hypotheses because they're the only visual basis of comparison a layman has for the concept of big buildings falling down. But when this "alternative explanation" winds up creating so many enormous holes, as opposed to the visual anomalies it takes a trained scientific mind to understand - that's around the time you have to consider sticking with the "official story."

If you'd like to further discuss the factors of WTC7's fall, you'll find it's already been given the most rigorous debunking, over and over, by people well more experienced than myself. The thing is, it should hardly take such excruciating discussion to convince someone of what they should see by following just a simple train of logic.
 
uk dave said:
1. Building codes around the world require that structural steel members are protected from fire for given periods
In the spirit of fairness, dave....cite?
 
Sir,

Again, I know fire can damage steel! That's not the question. The question is, has a steel-structured building ever COLLAPSED due to a fire. NOT has a steel-structured building ever been DAMAGED! The Madrid buildings did NOT collapse like the WTC. It may have been severely damaged, and pieces may have fell off...but all of the floors below the fire DID NOT collapse, nor did the massive fires cause any kind of pancake collapse.

Why did the Madrid building not fall completely is the question a real expert like yourself would ask?

You are a CT guy who does incomplete research or just a troll. You failed to see that the Madrid building has a concrete core. The building was too weak to remain. Madrid building was totally destroyed by fire. Or can you show me it standing today.

I got more buildings damaged by fire that are gone today. One in Philadelphia, where did it go?

The portions of the Madrid building with just steel fell quickly and exploded to the ground etc.

Questions? Where is One Meridian building in Philadelphia another favorite of CT fantasy world of indestructible steel buildings?
 
.... the fact remains...this 47 story steel-structured building literally DISSOLVED in just the blink of an eye....apparently due to a couple fires that were so LARGE they were virtually invisible from the outside.

Sir -

wtc7smokemajor.jpg


wtc7lateafternoon2.jpg


WTC7faked.jpg


This is not Pink Floyd getting over-excited during rehearsals ....
 

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