For reasons unknown, stundie decided to address points from this thread in a completely different one. Here are the relevant sections of his post:
Norman Minetta
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WildCat
NWO Master Conspirator
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Read the thread again, you clearly didn't understand it the first time around.
First off, nobody here believes he was lying.
Secondly, tell me: What time was it when you last went to the grocery store? Are you able to recall? How about the time of your last fire drill at work? Able to recall that?
Perhaps you could explain why is it unusual that he was simply mistaken as to the time. Is it also possible that perhaps watch was simply incorrect(slow)?
Why must everything be a conspiracy...
gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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It is impossible for Norman Mineta's testimony to be accurate, for a number of reasons. Ergo, he must be mistaken in one or more aspects of his testimony.
The most simple (and likely) explanation for all discrepencies is a time error of about 30 minutes (+/- 15 mins).
-Gumboot
First off, nobody here believes he was lying.
Secondly, tell me: What time was it when you last went to the grocery store? Are you able to recall? How about the time of your last fire drill at work? Able to recall that?
Perhaps you could explain why is it unusual that he was simply mistaken as to the time. Is it also possible that perhaps watch was simply incorrect(slow)?
Why must everything be a conspiracy...
Honestly, I know exactly what time I went to the store last night. +/- 2 minutes. However, in stating such, I'm sure I would only be subject to further inquiry. Then to just take it as I have an excellent memory and can easily recall things that happened years ago like they were yesterday.
Further more, I could accept someone being inaccurate on a time within a +/- 5 minutes., but 30 minutes? Thats quite a big difference. Quite a lot can happen in 30 minutes.
For the record, I agree that Norman's testimony was most likely in reference to a "shoot-down" order and not a "stand-down" order.(As he later mentioned when directly questioned on the issue) My issue has always been the time thing. As an example look at the OJ Simpson murder trial and the time issues associated there.
Welcome Eckolaker!
Yeah these Skeptics have the whole thing debunked.
Norman Mineta must have been wrong becuase these Skeptics say so! Hence that means it's true!!
They will tell you too read the posts for proof, yet I cannot find 1 SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE that suggest Minetas time are wrong. They think Mineta is about from 30-60 mins out of time (read thread) yet I have spoken in length on this and showed that Mineta must be about right. But the skeptics have chosen not to debunk that because it proves that Cheney was in there before 9:52am as Gravy keeps stating, even though it was Lynne Cheney who arrived at POEC at this time.
Even Minetas testimony states that he was with Cheney when he heard the news of flight AA77 which had crashed at 9:37am and again this put Minetas testimony in light and proves he was there before 9:52, but hey that could Cheney knew and debunkers can't have that!
Even though....
(9:10 a.m.): Rice and Cheney Apparently Go to White House Bunker; Other Accounts Have Cheney Moving Locations Later According to counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke and others, Vice President Cheney goes from his White House office to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC), a bunker in the East Wing of the White House, at about this time. National Security Adviser Rice, after initiating a video conference with Richard Clarke in the West Wing, goes to the PEOC to be with Cheney. There is no video link between response centers in the East and West Wings, but a secure telephone line is used instead. [Clarke, 2004, pp. 3-4; ABC News, 9/14/2002; New York Times, 9/16/2001; Daily Telegraph, 12/16/2001] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/12/16/wbush16.xml
One eyewitness account, David Bohrer, a White House photographer, says Cheney leaves for the PEOC just after 9:00 a.m. [ABC News, 9/14/2002]
http://web.archive.org/web/20021003....go.com/onair/DailyNews/sept11_moments_2.html
No doubt David Boher will get debunked as a liar too!
The funniest thing with these guys, they use arguements and logic which is lacking in ANY kind of investigation. If you do not agree with there side of the story, you'll be branded as a Conspiracy Theorist and a Loose Changer, something which I am accused of, as well as going onto the Loose Change forum, even though this is the 2nd Forum I've ever signed up to.
So be prepared for the backlash if you do not agree with them, even if you have evidence that contradicts it! Just don't take them too seriously!!
Start a thread off which doesn't follow the party line and watch the contradictions come in thick & fast! Enjoy...
twinstead
Penultimate Amazing
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Stundie can't you get it through your thick head that Minetta's testimony is the anomaly and is contradicted by nearly every other account of the events of that day.
If you indeed investigated like you say you do, you would realize that anomalous testimony is NORMAL in any investigation.
You latch on to these so-called anomalies like a bulldog and ignore any evidence that contradicts your theory, exactly like you accuse us of doing.
I submit that you couldn't investigate your way out of a paper bag.
If you indeed investigated like you say you do, you would realize that anomalous testimony is NORMAL in any investigation.
You latch on to these so-called anomalies like a bulldog and ignore any evidence that contradicts your theory, exactly like you accuse us of doing.
I submit that you couldn't investigate your way out of a paper bag.
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
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This is why people keep suggesting that you choose a topic to discuss and stick with it, because you have obviously missed (or failed to read and/or understand?) Gravy's comments:
Right there in the bolded part of the quote is the place to find your "1 SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE" that you "can't find". Here's a clue: it's impossible to "find" "evidence" if you don't look. Try looking where Gravy has pointed you, and maybe (just maybe!) you'll "find" some "evidence".
Oh, and remember: your "analysis" of Minetta testimony isn't evidence. The stuff Gravy quotes is. Learn the difference if you want to be taken seriously.
ETA: From the Commission's report(pages 39-40):
Since you're too lazy or ingnorant to find it yourself.
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Stundie
Mintetta's testimony was in contrast to Asst Chief of Staff Joshua Boltan's testimony, the Secret Service, Reagan National Airport's ATC, the FAA, VP Cheney's, Mrs Cheney, Richard Clarke's, Sec. Rumsfeld, NSA Condoleeza Rice, Sec. of Justice Ashcroft and several other people.
Please explain to me why the 9/11 commission after hearing Minetta's tesimony decided he was wrong and went with everyone else's testimony.
Could it be Mintteta was wrong on his time frame? Could it be because Minetta said he could be wrong and was unsure?
Mintetta's testimony was in contrast to Asst Chief of Staff Joshua Boltan's testimony, the Secret Service, Reagan National Airport's ATC, the FAA, VP Cheney's, Mrs Cheney, Richard Clarke's, Sec. Rumsfeld, NSA Condoleeza Rice, Sec. of Justice Ashcroft and several other people.
Please explain to me why the 9/11 commission after hearing Minetta's tesimony decided he was wrong and went with everyone else's testimony.
Could it be Mintteta was wrong on his time frame? Could it be because Minetta said he could be wrong and was unsure?
Gravy
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Welcome to the forums, Eckolaker.
I have no doubt that you have an excellent memory. But suppose you were certain of the time of day of an event 19 months ago. Then suppose there were multiple written, time-coded accounts and other records (such as phone records) made during that event that said otherwise. Would you still insist that you were right?
Sec. Minetta claimed in his testimony that Pres. Bush departed Sarasota, FL aboard Air Force One no later than 0926 when, in fact, we know through live media coverage and from reporters that accompanied the President on his evacuation to Barksdale AFB that the time was actually 0957. At 0930 - four minutes after Minetta's testified Bush departed, he actually gave the first live address to the country about the attacks.
memory is maliable. Magic tricks often use misdirect of language and time so that people remeber things that never happaned. LI do a trick where I cut the deck but call it shuffling and I do this before the trick has begun in the minds of the audience. This way they remember that I shuffled at the end of the trick.
Eyewitness testimony is worse than magic tricks because people don't know what to focus on and when asked to recall can only remember general events and not specifics like time.
By who EXACTLY.....This is the thing, you guys keep saying that Minetas wrong, he's got the times wrong etc....but yet you fail to state how you have come to this conclusion.
Again Proof would help us?
Says the man with no PROOF!! You argument is at best laughable, but to believe there is an anomaly in Minetas testimony is quite absurd when you consider the other evidence.
BTW...Here is a great comprehensive guide as to what happened on 9/11...Along with many links & proof as you could shake a stick at, including any reported anomalies!
http://www.cooperativeresearch.net/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=1400
(9:10 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Rice and Cheney Apparently Go to White House Bunker; Other Accounts Have Cheney Moving Locations Later According to counterterrorism “tsar” Richard Clarke and others, Vice President Cheney goes from his White House office to the Presidential Emergency Operations Center (PEOC), a bunker in the East Wing of the White House, at about this time. National Security Adviser Rice, after initiating a video conference with Richard Clarke in the West Wing, goes to the PEOC to be with Cheney. There is no video link between response centers in the East and West Wings, but a secure telephone line is used instead. [Clarke, 2004, pp. 3-4; ABC News, 9/14/2002; New York Times, 9/16/2001; Daily Telegraph, 12/16/2001]
One eyewitness account, David Bohrer, a White House photographer, says Cheney leaves for the PEOC just after 9:00 a.m. [ABC News, 9/14/2002]
However, there is a second account claiming that Cheney doesn’t leave until sometime after 9:30 a.m. In this account, Secret Service agents burst into Cheney’s White House office. They carry him under his arms—nearly lifting him off the ground—and propel him down the steps into the White House basement and through a long tunnel toward an underground bunker. [Washington Post, 1/27/2002; BBC, 9/1/2002; Newsweek, 12/31/2001; New York Times, 10/16/2001; MSNBC, 9/11/2002; 9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004]
At about the same time, National Security Adviser Rice is told to go to the bunker as well. [ABC News, 9/11/2002]
In addition to the eyewitness accounts of Clarke and Bohrer, ABC News claims that Cheney is in the bunker when he is told Flight 77 is 50 miles away from Washington at 9:27 a.m., suggesting that accounts of Cheney entering the bunker after 9:27 a.m. are likely incorrect.
The point is Cheney was at the POEC before the Pentagon crash and not at 9:52am which Gravy seems keen on banding about.
Gravy....This was not just any day....19 months ago, it was the day of the largest attack on American Soil! I have a good account of what I did that day because of the impression the attacks left on me as I'm sure Mineta and anyone else directly involved in the operations during and after the attacks.
The funny thing is and I'm hoping that you JREFers agree with me here, but like when people say I remember where I was when I heard about JFKs assination, people remember where they were when they heard/saw that the plane had crashed into & when WTC collapsed?
If it was an ordinary day, I would agree with you, but it wasn't so I'm going to have to disagree because it was an unusual day with unusual events which make remembering them more easier.
Yes I know the mind can distort etc....but again you have still not provided any proof that Minetas testimony is inaccurate...other the conclusions you guys have come too.
If you are using the Secret Service log that Cheney arrived at POEC at 10:00 or 9:52am (as you put it, even though this is Lynne Cheneys arrival time!) It easy to prove how this cannot be the case just by asking some sensible questions....
Like why did the Secret Service wait til after the both WTC & the Pentagon attacks to whisk Cheney off to the POEC?
If Minetas time IS wrong, yet he is with the Vice President when he is told of the Pentagon attack and the Shanksville crash, then what time did they receive this information?
Because if Cheney arrived at 9:52 or 10:00am, then they are the last people to know about the Planes crashing at the Pentagon then??
So I'm suggesting that Minetas time is correct, but because Cheney would not testify, there is no way of validating the information, but using the process of elimination, we know he was there before these times.
Here is a great website which timelines all the events that happened leading upto 9/11 and the aftermath, with references and links to relevant websites from over 6000 news sources from around the world.....and not a single thing from a Conspiracy Theorists site!
http://www.cooperativeresearch.net/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=1400
Its without a doubt the most comprehensive timeline about 9/11 and includes any anomalies!!