Atheist vs. Theist comfort

T'ai Chi said:
However, when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different. I hear that:
Click to expand...

Do you include the "talks" you have had with atheists here? If so, could you point out some examples? If not, why do you exclude them?
 
T'ai Chi said:
We often hear, as an attack on both, the issue of 'comfort' being discussed in regards to atheism and theism.

There are many variations, but most of the strawmans I hear go something like this:

Atheist strawman: a theist likes the comfort of knowing that he'll live forever

Theist strawman: an atheist likes the comfort of knowing that he has no responsibilities

However, when I talk to atheists and theists, it seems the real situation is a little different. I hear that:

A theist understands that for the universe to have a definite beginning it may imply it has a definite end. At the very least knowing that you are a creation implies that you can be uncreated. This is not too comforting, as people do love living life even if there happens to be an afterlife.

An atheist believes that it is impossible for something to come from nothing, and that matter/energy cannot be created nor destroyed. From both of these things, they are forced to believe the universe is enternal. This type of eternal existance can be said to give the atheist comfort.
Click to expand...
this is wierd you seem to have confused atheism with materialism here. An atheist could believe in a created universe, just not in god.

I like the fact that I can't know if the universe is eternal or not, We Just Can't Know at this time. I think that it great.

I am a materialst and I do not assume the universe is eternal, the observed fact that energy and matter can not be destroyed does not mean that our pocket of space time is eternal.
Of course, I don't think the comfort-arguments are good at all. But people use them all the time to hint that if it comforts you, you like it because of the comfort and not because of what is providing the comfort. Like if your bed is comfortable, you just like the comfort it provides and you don't really care about the bed itself.
Click to expand...

I find comfort in the fact that from the non-theist viewpoint I don't have to worry about evil or why I was raped when i was six. If there is some grand scheme then things devolve to a state of spiritual narcissism. It better I feel to not think that the universe has it out for me everythime something negative happens.

I certainly don't find comfort in other's beliefs, if they wish to apply a different standard, that is cool. As long as they admit it is a human concept. ;)
 
You know, strawmen and unwarranted assumptions and all, this is the closest T'ai Chi has ever come to saying something I agree with.

That statement, roughly, is: Most people generally discount the thought processes of those with whom they do not agree.
 
I don't agree, Loss Leader. I think T'ai is simply assigning a straw man to atheists and atheism and then attacking that straw man.
 
An atheist says 'what is is'

A theist says 'what is is because someone wanted it that way, and if im really good and try really hard i can change it if i can just convince them'

I really don't know which is more comforting to any individual, but i have good grasp on which of them represents reality more fully.
 
Last of the Fraggles said:
An atheist says 'what is is'
Click to expand...

That would describe a skeptic, not an atheist. An atheist is someone that simply doesn't believe in any gods. Someday, people will understand this and stop misrepresenting atheists as materialists, smart, stupid, silly, funny, serious, angry or anything else other than "a person that doesn't believe in any gods."
 
Look up the definition of atheist in any dictionary. It doesn't mention "what is is" in any of those definitions.

An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in any gods.

Non-belief in a god is the only defining characteristic to be an atheist.

Atheists can believe in ESP, the paranormal, pixies, elves, homeopathy and any other nonsense.
 
thaiboxerken said:
I don't agree, Loss Leader. I think T'ai is simply assigning a straw man to atheists and atheism and then attacking that straw man.
Click to expand...

Oh, I'm not saying I agree with his thesis. I'm just saying that burried in everything else, he seems to have accidentally stumbled upon some one thing that I think is generally true.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Look up the definition of atheist in any dictionary. It doesn't mention "what is is" in any of those definitions.

An atheist is someone that doesn't believe in any gods.

Non-belief in a god is the only defining characteristic to be an atheist.

Atheists can believe in ESP, the paranormal, pixies, elves, homeopathy and any other nonsense.
Click to expand...

And if what is isn't who is making it that way?

I didn't say atheists only believe in that which can be factually proven to exist, I said they beieve what is is. To an atheist who believes in ESP, ESP is. They have seen, heard or know of its existence. They don't believe God makes it happen sometimes if he wants to. They believe it to be a fact.

They can't ask someone to change it. That was what I was getting at. To a theist everything is fungible since it can be changed at any time by the will of God.
 
Loss Leader said:
That statement, roughly, is: Most people generally discount the thought processes of those with whom they do not agree.
Click to expand...

Interesting point. Living in China has given me a crash course in trying to work out what the hell people who have 0 cultural similarity to me are getting at and its really tough.

I can follow an argument from someone here and agree with every logical step and then suddenly the conclusion blind-sides me and I just get a huge WTF feeling.

When I'm dealing with different political beliefs I can also do the same thing to some degree, or at least understand where the differences lie.

However when I see religious arguments I have a totally different feeling I just find myself saying No, No, No, No, No thats not true, all the way through. I don't discount them because they are different I just can't even understand where they would get such nonsense from.
 
Last of the Fraggles said:
I didn't say atheists only believe in that which can be factually proven to exist, I said they beieve what is is. To an atheist who believes in ESP, ESP is. They have seen, heard or know of its existence. They don't believe God makes it happen sometimes if he wants to. They believe it to be a fact.

They can't ask someone to change it. That was what I was getting at.
Click to expand...
You're still going beyond the definition of atheist.

The label does not encompass all that you think it does.

-Squish
 
Because the label only applies to if a person believes in a god or not. An atheist can have hopeful dreams of a god-like being that could change things the way a god could. Raelians, for example, are atheists.

I said they beieve what is is. To an atheist who believes in ESP, ESP is
Click to expand...

This is a nonsense statement and can apply equally to theist. To a theist, their god is.
 
thaiboxerken said:
Because the label only applies to if a person believes in a god or not. An atheist can have hopeful dreams of a god-like being that could change things the way a god could. Raelians, for example, are atheists.



This is a nonsense statement and can apply equally to theist. To a theist, their god is.
Click to expand...

Yes they could. The fact they invoke a God though would distinguish it from any atheist comfort and would therefore be irrelevant to a discussion of that.

I've never met a Raelian nor do I wish to, however if you accurately paint their position as being 'I don't believe in God but I believe in a God-like being who performs all the duties of a God but isn't God - so I'm an atheist' then I'm calling BS on that.
 
Last of the Fraggles said:
I've never met a Raelian nor do I wish to, however if you accurately paint their position as being 'I don't believe in God but I believe in a God-like being who performs all the duties of a God but isn't God - so I'm an atheist' then I'm calling BS on that.
Click to expand...

You can call BS on it all you want. However, the Raelians think that what people of all religions call "god" is just a superior alien race. Thus, it's not really a god, and they really are atheist. They really have a stupid belief, but it's still one that doesn't invoke a god.

Will you get it through your thick skull that atheist only means a person that doesn't believe in a god?
 
Squishua said:
An atheist believes there is no God. Period.

An atheist can still be someone who believes in any number of whacky far-out things like goblins, leprechauns, monsters, ghosts and all manner of unseen entities and phenomena - just no God.

-Squish
Click to expand...

Yes great. So how does that disagree with what I wrote.
 
thaiboxerken said:
You can call BS on it all you want. However, the Raelians think that what people of all religions call "god" is just a superior alien race. Thus, it's not really a god, and they really are atheist. They really have a stupid belief, but it's still one that doesn't invoke a god.

Will you get it through your thick skull that atheist only means a person that doesn't believe in a god?
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with your definition of atheist. Don't think I ever did, so you are arguing with yourself.

What I was characterising was 'atheist comfort' vs 'theist comfort' which was the point of this thread originally - i believe there is a fundamental difference there in that theists can appeal to a God who can change what 'is' at any time, atheists can't.

Why you got so uppity about dictionary definitions of atheism and what it does and doesn't mean is beyond me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom