Last of the Fraggles
Illuminator
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No I didn't. You inferred other traits from what I said. I can't be held responsible for what goes on in your head, I have enough trouble looking after my own.
No I didn't. You inferred other traits from what I said. I can't be held responsible for what goes on in your head, I have enough trouble looking after my own.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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No, you've assigned traits to atheism specifically "they think what is, is." This is simply false. Some atheists think what is might not be what it is. Some atheist think the world is an illusion or delusion. Some think that magical energies change the world much like a god would. This "atheist comfort" is a figment of T'ai Chi's and your imagination. Such a comfort doesn't exist.
Last of the Fraggles
Illuminator
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No, I assigned the absence of a trait to atheists. They do not believe there is a God who changes what 'is' by their will. If you want to take offence at that definition go ahead, but I don't see what you will gain from it.
If you claim atheists don't take comfort in things then you are dishonest. They simply do not take comfort in God.
Nothing you have said has been at odds with what I have said anywhere except in your own mind. An atheist can happily believe that there are leprechauns who run into his house at night and dismantle all the furniture, burn the pieces and then rebuild exact replicas while he is sleeping. To that atheist, that's the way things are. No amount of praying to God will stop them coming.
If you want to invoke the Raelians as some sort of special case then I'm happy you have them on your side. They certainly will lend you a lot of credibility. They're not atheists just because the gods they believe in are aliens though.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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I'm not making that claim. I'm simply saying that there isn't an "atheist comfort."
Right. However, some atheists might think invoking magic or other supernatural powers can change things which isn't much different than praying to a god.
Atheists may or may not think "what is, is."
Wrong, because the Raeleans don't believe in any gods, just advanced alien beings.
Also, Buddhists can be atheist as well and some believe in weird supernatural stuff as well.. just not gods.
Last of the Fraggles
Illuminator
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You seem to be having problems with the 'what is, is' part... i think this is for 1 of 3 reasons:
1) You are mistaking 'what is' to mean 'what we can prove to be real' or 'what thaiboxerken thinks is real' or something similar. That's not what I meant.
2) You are taking it out of context where it was being used to compare with the theist position. The point was to show that atheism does not have a 'go to guy' to change things we really don't like. This is different to other woo things - ok you think wearing a crystal gives you better erections, great. Can it make an amputated leg grow back? Erm..no. There are no limits to the problems God can solve, and outside of theism I don't think there is anything else that we can say this about.
3) I didn't make my initial point very lucidly. Very likely, that will teach me to try to write things at 5 in the morning.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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Then what does it mean?
There is a simpler way to say this.
'Atheists don't believe in a god."
Last of the Fraggles
Illuminator
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Well yes we could just quote a dictionary definition of atheism everytime someone mentions the word but it wouldn't be tremendously helpful would it.
Especially when that wasn't really the initial question.
As to 'what does it mean?' it means whatever the person doing the thinking believes it to mean. Its simply the picture of reality that they hold to be true.
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
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"Well yes we could just quote a dictionary definition of atheism everytime someone mentions the word but it wouldn't be tremendously helpful would it"
Yes, actually it would and it does help people. Except for T'ai Chi, but that's only because he doesn't want to know what atheism means.
Yes, actually it would and it does help people. Except for T'ai Chi, but that's only because he doesn't want to know what atheism means.
Cosmo
Radioactive Rationalist
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You appear to be using an unconventional definition of "reality". Could you elaborate?
Well, let's go back to what you wrote:
What about an atheist who believes in ESP and thinks the powers come from entities in hidden dimensions and it is only by gaining the favor of said entities that one can manifest extrasensory powers?
"What is, is" is a vague statement anyway. Couldn't a theist say "what is, is"?
-Squish
Fraggle,
The problem with your statement is that it's either true of everyone (we all, theists and atheists, believe that what is, is), or it doesn't really say anything at all about anyone.
For instance, it seems like you might be saying: Theists believe that what is, is God. Atheists believe that what is, is [something other than god].
The problem is that not all atheists will agree to what that something other than god is. So basically all you've done is restate that atheists don't believe in god, but in more confusing terms.
Finally, your statement conflates atheists with strong atheists. That is, some atheists will admit that possibility of god, though they don't believe in it. For them the statement might look like this, "What is, is [god or something else, but probably something else].
Which muddies the waters even more.
The problem with your statement is that it's either true of everyone (we all, theists and atheists, believe that what is, is), or it doesn't really say anything at all about anyone.
For instance, it seems like you might be saying: Theists believe that what is, is God. Atheists believe that what is, is [something other than god].
The problem is that not all atheists will agree to what that something other than god is. So basically all you've done is restate that atheists don't believe in god, but in more confusing terms.
Finally, your statement conflates atheists with strong atheists. That is, some atheists will admit that possibility of god, though they don't believe in it. For them the statement might look like this, "What is, is [god or something else, but probably something else].
Which muddies the waters even more.
I see, so you're one of those who feels that to talk about X you just have to use the definition of X and nothing else. Unfortunately for you, that's not how it works in the real world.
Such hypocrisy....
You are the one who insists on using the dictionary definition of "skeptic", and refuse to acknowledge how it is used in the real world, e.g. here.
To talk about "X", we must have a mutually agreed upon definition of "X". Endless debate along these lines can be avoided by simply looking up a word and comprehending it's meaning.
People can and do choose to redefine words willy nilly. That doesn't mean it's condusive to a coherent discussion (which I kinda gather is part of the reason for these forums), and it is certainly no reason to let such intellectual sloppiness go unchecked.
-Squish