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Are All Conspiracy Theories False?

TruthSeeker1234

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If you and I had been hanging around Germany in the 1930's, and I would have said there was huge government conspiracy brewing, one that involved false-flag terror, mass-murder of German citizens, the suspension of elections, a police state, and plans for global conquest; would you have questioned my sanity?

Have there never been any government conspiracies, ever? I just want to understand the mindset of the JREFs. Do you dismiss conspiracies out of hand, or take them on a case by case basis? Are there any alleged conspiracies that you accept as the truth?
 
Do you dismiss conspiracies out of hand, or take them on a case by case basis?
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Case by case. Of course there have been real government and non-government conspiracies.

It's a question of evidence.

eta: In your example of Germany in the 30s, if we were around then and you told me what you thought was brewing, I would say, "let's see the evidence." I would think there was solid evidence at that time that things were getting very bad. I'm not sure if Nazism was a conspiracy, though--wasn't Hitler pretty open with his ideology?
 
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TruthSeeker1234 said:
If you and I had been hanging around Germany in the 1930's, and I would have said there was huge government conspiracy brewing, one that involved false-flag terror, mass-murder of German citizens, the suspension of elections, a police state, and plans for global conquest; would you have questioned my sanity?

Have there never been any government conspiracies, ever? I just want to understand the mindset of the JREFs. Do you dismiss conspiracies out of hand, or take them on a case by case basis? Are there any alleged conspiracies that you accept as the truth?
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According to a recent poll, over half the posters at the Loose Change forum still aren't sure there was mass murder of german citizens, so maybe you could ask there too.

Now as far as JREFers are concerned, I think they'd be some of the first to speak up. Maybe you don't realise but the Nazi's operated in just the same way as the CTists - exploiting public paranoia, ignorance, and educational shortcomings to invent enemies that didn't exist. Exploitation of public ignorance is exactly the thing the JREF stands against, no matter who is perpetrating it.
 
If you had to draw up a pie graph showing what proportion of historical events were due to a massive, mastermind conspiracy versus ones that were due to accidental collision of events, the "conspiracy" slice on the chart would barely be visible.

Of course politicians make back-room deals all the time. Bills that didn't have the support to pass, suddenly pick up 15 votes at the last minute. Some deal was made, a promise that the favor would be returned.

That is a conspiracy.

But when you look at a massive event, a worldwide economic downturn or a major war, you always see blame that spreads in so many directions it almost becomes invisible. If 99.9999% of world events are NOT the result of massive conspiracy, then we have to demand massive proof before we declare it to be the cause of any one event. Because it's so rare.

For instance, Hitler didn't start World War 2. The conditions in Germany after WW1 made Hitler. Hitler just filled a vaccuum.

Fine, so we blame those who drew up the treaty conditions after WW1, right? Well, no. They had their reasons, too. And they wouldn't have been in that position, had WW1 not broken out in the first place. Okay, so whose fault was that war? So now we start researching all of the economic and social conditions that brewed together to make that tragedy happen.

And on and on. You work backwards and find a never-ending chain of mistakes and accidents and circumstancse that nobody could have predicted. Whose fault was it? Who was behind it?

Nobody. And everybody. We talk about Bush and the NeoCons and big oil. Well, I'm not exactly riding a bicycle to work. Are you? That big all-seeing pyramid of the Illuminati... well guess what, it exists. Only we're the bricks. And there's no eyeball at the top. It just ends in another brick.

And that's the scariest thing, Truthseeker. The monster has no head. I wish it did, then we could lop it off and cure the world. It doesn't work like that.
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
If you and I had been hanging around Germany in the 1930's, and I would have said there was huge government conspiracy brewing, one that involved false-flag terror, mass-murder of German citizens, the suspension of elections, a police state, and plans for global conquest; would you have questioned my sanity?

Have there never been any government conspiracies, ever? I just want to understand the mindset of the JREFs. Do you dismiss conspiracies out of hand, or take them on a case by case basis? Are there any alleged conspiracies that you accept as the truth?
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The Reichstagsbrand could be described as a "False Flag OP" - but it´s still not proved that the Nazis did it, even if they used it as propaganda.
 
jimtron said:
I'm not sure if Nazism was a conspiracy, though--wasn't Hitler pretty open with his ideology?
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Of course Nazism was a conspiracy. The German people were told they were under attack, that the "Communists" wanted to get them. While Hitler made public statements about the depression being the fault of "jewish bankers", the policy of mass murder was top-secret. Thousands of operatives kept silent as they went about their horrific business.

If Germany had won the war, the holocaust would be a conspiracy theory, denied to this day.
 
Even if it's happened before, doesn't mean it's happening now. If you told me about a massive conspiracy in 1933, I would have demanded evidence. If you weren't able to provide any, I wouldn't have believed you.

Believing something, with no evidence, even if it's right.... is called religion... it's not science.
 
If Germany had won the war, the holocaust would be a conspiracy theory, denied to this day.
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The Holocaust is denied today, by many CTs. If Germany had won the war, I'll bet that evidence of the Holocaust would still exist--I don't see how they could totally cover up the murders of 6 million people.
 
jimtron said:
The Holocaust is denied today, by many CTs. If Germany had won the war, I'll bet that evidence of the Holocaust would still exist--I don't see how they could totally cover up the murders of 6 million people.
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They could have covered it up by saying "they died of disease". If we hadn't won, we wouldn't have known of the crematoriums.
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
If Germany had won the war, the holocaust would be a conspiracy theory, denied to this day.
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actually if germany have won the war theyd probably be touting the extermination of the jews as their greatest accomplishment


i think there was a conspiracy to make me lose the bet that TS1234 wouldnt come back....
 
David Wong said:
For instance, Hitler didn't start World War 2. The conditions in Germany after WW1 made Hitler. Hitler just filled a vaccuum.
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You make an excellent point David. Social science is always complex. This is why Occam's razor does not apply to social science, only physical science. With social science, I could give a hundred examples where the simplist plausible explanation is not the correct one.

I believe Occam's razor is an excellent test for 9/11, or an awful one, depending on how you frame it. I wholeheartedly conceed that the conspiracy of Osama and the hijackers is smaller and simpler than the conspiracy of Cheney, NORAD, the demolition team, Silverstein, NIST and everybody else. But that's social science.

On the physical science by itself, Occam's razor clearly slices in favor of controlled demolition. This is because we know that controlled demolitions can occur, they have occured many times in the past. It requires no new theory to explain it. Thus controlled demolition is a far simpler explanation than the brand-new "gravity disintegrates the quarter mile high skyscraper" hypothesis.
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
Of course Nazism was a conspiracy. The German people were told they were under attack, that the "Communists" wanted to get them. While Hitler made public statements about the depression being the fault of "jewish bankers", the policy of mass murder was top-secret. Thousands of operatives kept silent as they went about their horrific business.

If Germany had won the war, the holocaust would be a conspiracy theory, denied to this day.
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But it is denied to this day. By conspiracy theorists. What does that tell you about conspiracy theorists? It tells me that they're less interested in real conspiracies and more interested in rewriting history to suit their personal politics.

I've seen many CTists on here arguing the semantics of the term, but IMO Conspiracy Theorist means heavily biased alternative historian, nothing else. It's not meant to be a descriptive term, its an insult.
 
TruthSeeker1234 said:
Of course Nazism was a conspiracy. The German people were told they were under attack, that the "Communists" wanted to get them. While Hitler made public statements about the depression being the fault of "jewish bankers", the policy of mass murder was top-secret. Thousands of operatives kept silent as they went about their horrific business.

If Germany had won the war, the holocaust would be a conspiracy theory, denied to this day.
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There are still idiots who deny it - no matter if or if not. Let me repeat that: IDIOTS!
 
One might be able to argue that Woodward and Bernstein were investigating a conspiracy theory, ie, Nixon conspired with others to break into the Watergate Hotel and then cover it up. But then they found evidence that it really happened.
 
Lisa Simpson said:
One might be able to argue that Woodward and Bernstein were investigating a conspiracy theory, ie, Nixon conspired with others to break into the Watergate Hotel and then cover it up. But then they found evidence that it really happened.
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and how long did nixon manage to keep that covered up? and there was only what, 5 people involved?
 
Lisa Simpson said:
One might be able to argue that Woodward and Bernstein were investigating a conspiracy theory, ie, Nixon conspired with others to break into the Watergate Hotel and then cover it up. But then they found evidence that it really happened.
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Not just argue--I think it's a fact that there was a conspiracy theory about Nixon and Watergate which turned out to be real.
 
jimtron said:
Wasn't it known before the end of the war, that Jews were being mass murdered? And Hitler didn't seem too shy about expressing his views.
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Foreign intelligence knew about it. The Nazis didn´t make it publicly known.
 
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