Are All Conspiracy Theories False?

[Belz...]

Welcome to the frrrrm, nrrrrd grrrrl.

 

[Hellbound]

Welcome to the frrrrm, nrrrrd grrrrl.

I'll second that.

Also, let me be the first to buy you a vowel.

Let's have an "E".

 

[Belz...]

I'll second that.

Also, let me be the first to buy you a vowel.

Let's have an "E".

Huntsman, obviously you don't undrrrrstand what w'rrrr talking about, hrrrr.

Why don't you take yrrrr eight legs and bloody fangs and go bite someone in the neck! Be prrrrductive.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by NobbyNobbs
Ok, here's a question. Assume the wall panels were removed, the fire proofing pushed aside, the steel girders and whatnot already prepped...

How much time would it take to place 2 million pounds of C4 and wire it? Huntster, any idea? (This is per building, but let's say they did both buildings simultaneously.)

ETA: Forget about transporting it. Assume the C-4 is already there on site, in a big pile, divvied up into convienent 1lb (or whatever you use) chunks, just waiting to be stuck on the wall.

I'm serious...can anybody address this? Depending on the answer, it may poke yet another big hole in the CT.

I suspect you were addressing Huntsman, but I'll take a stab a pointing out a few things:

The WTC Bombing was conducted with an ANFO type explosive (as were Nairobi, OKC, Khobar, and almost all the other high profile bombings). The reason should be obvious; the bombers do not have the ability to set their explosives like an explosive demo crew. They pull it up as close as possible in a container truck, then set it off.

Nobody is going to divide 2 million pounds of C-4 into 1 lb. packages, then distribute the 2 million charges throughout a target individually in ordere to set off a terroristic bombing attack. It's not possible.

Why consider it?

 

[CurtC]

Yes, instead they divide up 2 million pounds of ANFO into 110 truckloads of approximately 20,000 pounds each, and park each of those truckloads onto a floor of each WTC tower. Much more plausible.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If you and I had been hanging around Germany in the 1930's, and I would have said there was huge government conspiracy brewing, one that involved false-flag terror, mass-murder of German citizens, the suspension of elections, a police state, and plans for global conquest; would you have questioned my sanity?

Have there never been any government conspiracies, ever? I just want to understand the mindset of the JREFs. Do you dismiss conspiracies out of hand, or take them on a case by case basis? Are there any alleged conspiracies that you accept as the truth?

I doubt the Germans involved in Hitler's government had such a clear idea of the future in the 30s. And I doubt their intentions were quite as secret as you imply. I think you are confusing the evolution/revolution type of governmental change with something planned and kept secret years ahead.

Of course a coup or other means of overthrowing a government can be planned, kept secret, and executed. The more people involved, the more likely for the plot to be discovered/uncovered. The longer the planning takes, the more likely it is to be discovered. And once the plan is executed, there is no need to keep it secret except if it fails and then it is a matter of who turns who in.

In the case of the conspiracies we normally are referring to, and the 9/11 one in particular, the secret must be kept long after the plan is executed. There are many differences from your example. So your example doesn't provide credibility that a massive 9/11 conspiracy could have occurred without someone leaking it.

As to a government conspiracy, the ones I think of are frequent. Very often they are also exposed by those whistle blowers. The Pentagon Papers comes to mind. Wilson blowing the cover on the Iraq yellow cake lie is another. The thing about the current government is they are working to actually generate leaks in their favor, and they are good at lessening the impact of the leaks that don't. They have done a good job, sadly, of making Wilson out to be a crony appointment the Bush team is now famous for, yet Wilson had extensive qualifications and experience in Africa.

 

[Pardalis]

Of course a coup or other means of overthrowing a government can be planned, kept secret, and executed.

Of course, you would certainly know about that.

 

[R.Mackey]

I suspect you were addressing Huntsman, but I'll take a stab a pointing out a few things:

The WTC Bombing was conducted with an ANFO type explosive (as were Nairobi, OKC, Khobar, and almost all the other high profile bombings). The reason should be obvious; the bombers do not have the ability to set their explosives like an explosive demo crew. They pull it up as close as possible in a container truck, then set it off.

Yes, I think there was another name confusion. Sorry about that.

The claim is that the Big Bad Gov'mn't was responsible, not the same people who carried out the '93 bombing, so presumably they'd be more sophisticated than that. Still...

Nobody is going to divide 2 million pounds of C-4 into 1 lb. packages, then distribute the 2 million charges throughout a target individually in ordere to set off a terroristic bombing attack. It's not possible.

Why consider it?

I wholeheartedly agree. Nonetheless, some conspiracists insist that explosives of this magnitude were used. You've drawn the same conclusion that we have -- that it's so ridiculous to be immediately discarded, even apart from the lack of physical evidence for such a thing, and the fact that the Official Story is quite consistent, once you get past their misunderstandings of it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Of course, you would certainly know about that.

That was your version, P. Pure fantasy reinforced by all the other folks in that thread who preferred to imagine an event rather than see what it actually was either before or after it occurred. While you read links to websites of people stuck in the fifties, I went out to see the real world. No commie pinkos, no absurdities like imagining a coup.

Say, do you drive one of those 4-wheelers designed for off-road driving that you've never taken off road? Own an AK47 you'll never use except for target practice? I have an imagination too.

 

[Pardalis]

That was your version, P. Pure fantasy reinforced by all the other folks in that thread who preferred to imagine an event rather than see what it actually was either before or after it occurred. While you read links to websites of people stuck in the fifties, I went out to see the real world. No commie pinkos, no absurdities like imagining a coup.

Say, do you drive one of those 4-wheelers designed for off-road driving that you've never taken off road? Own an AK47 you'll never use except for target practice? I have an imagination too.

Wait, wait... Skeptigirl, I was only teasing you.

 

[TruthSeeker1234]

I doubt the Germans involved in Hitler's government had such a clear idea of the future in the 30s. And I doubt their intentions were quite as secret as you imply. I think you are confusing the evolution/revolution type of governmental change with something planned and kept secret years ahead.


In the case of the conspiracies we normally are referring to, and the 9/11 one in particular, the secret must be kept long after the plan is executed. There are many differences from your example. So your example doesn't provide credibility that a massive 9/11 conspiracy could have occurred without someone leaking it.

Hitler's guys burned down the German Parliment building and blamed it on the Communists. The German people bought it, they never admitted it, and people deny it to this day. Hitler's people also had some prisoners dressed up as Polish soldiers, and shot them, claimed that Poland was attacking, and the German people bought that one also.

The U.S. overthrew a democratically elected president in Iran in 1953, and didn't admit it until long after the 1979 Iran hostage crises. During the hostage crises, it would have been very informative for U.S. citizens to understand why the Iranians were so angry. Instead, thousands of U.S. governemnt officials kept it all a big secret for decades.

Gulf of Tonkin, Remember the Maine, Indonesia, Guatemala, sadly the list goes on and on.

 

[Pardalis]

So TS, according to your logic, you've been living under a nazist state for well over 50 years... That wasn't too bad.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Hitler's guys burned down the German Parliment building and blamed it on the Communists. The German people bought it, they never admitted it, and people deny it to this day. Hitler's people also had some prisoners dressed up as Polish soldiers, and shot them, claimed that Poland was attacking, and the German people bought that one also.

The U.S. overthrew a democratically elected president in Iran in 1953, and didn't admit it until long after the 1979 Iran hostage crises. During the hostage crises, it would have been very informative for U.S. citizens to understand why the Iranians were so angry. Instead, thousands of U.S. governemnt officials kept it all a big secret for decades.

Gulf of Tonkin, Remember the Maine, Indonesia, Guatemala, sadly the list goes on and on.

Not disputing the government conspiracy claim, I said so. What I dispute is that these real conspiracies support the claim that, of the hundreds of people it would have taken to pull off 9/11 were there implosion devices set up in the Trade Towers none would have blown the whistle, could be credible.

But where do you get off with the thousands of government officials keeping the secrets? All of those 'secrets' are not secret now, weren't secret for very long, and didn't involve thousands of people. Just because there wasn't some official government statement of admission doesn't mean a secret was kept.

Americans still don't know half that stuff to this day. And some that have heard it don't believe it or at least don't think it was significant enough to spark resentment that resulted in 9/11. What you are talking about is the failure of our school's history classes, not the keeping of a conspiracy secret by thousands of people.

 

[Drew]

"Are all conspiracy theories false?"

NO!

Police deal with conspiracies quite often. They come up with theories as to how each is commited and they present the best one along with the evidence to a prosecuter.

 

[TK0001]

I think they're still licking their wounds after "South Park."

Anyway, despite the fact that TruthSeeker1234 seems to have abandoned this thread as well, once he got dangerously close to learning something, I would like to follow up with a clear comparison.

Earlier we calculated that each tower contained the equivalent of 160 tons of TNT in terms of gravitational energy. TruthSeeker1234 among others has intimated that much, much more was needed, in the form of explosives or otherwise. Never mind that it would be pointless, difficult at best to do, and guarantee that the WTC collapses would look strange, but let's run with it.

So he postulates more than 320 tons of TNT between the two towers.

Let's conservatively say 500 tons.

Anybody want to see what 500 tons of TNT looks like?

Here's some photographs of 500 tons of TNT, both as a big pile before detonation, and a staggering blast afterwards. And here you can download some video. This all took place on Kaho'olawe Island, in a Navy test to estimate how well modern guided-missile surface ships might fare in a nuclear environment.

I normally don't post pictures. It's enough to say, scientifically, that the intense heat flash, incredible shock wave (clearly seen), and enormous supersonic evolution of the fireball would have been unmistakable, as would the instant fracture of every single window in New York City, everyone watching being thrown off their feet, and nearby helicopters crushed like bugs as they flew nearby. The very idea is ludicrous, even if we don't start tearing pages out of X-Men comic books and claiming them to be real... Tesla weapons and "Fusion Flashlights" indeed.

No, I normally don't post pictures, but these are kinda cool. Enjoy. May you learn something, TruthSeeker1234, and other deniers who may be watching. Your theories are totally out to lunch.

This is the single most crushing post to the CTist explosives argument that I have ever read.

Absolutely great job.

 

[MRC_Hans]

WOW! It certainly sets things in perspective. And the things you see are not even the worst: This blast is carefully designed to minimize scrapnell; only the raw explosive force is desired. If explosives were set in the towers to blow the structure apart, they would be attached to structural elements. Think of this: What happens to the parts you blow away from the structure to weaken it? Right! It flies off at supersonic speeds. All of the collateral damage was from heavy objects and burning debris raining more or less down on the surroundings. Where are the myriads of scrapnell holes we should see in buildings, cars, helicopters, people??

Hans

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I suspect you were addressing Huntsman, but I'll take a stab a pointing out a few things:

The WTC Bombing was conducted with an ANFO type explosive (as were Nairobi, OKC, Khobar, and almost all the other high profile bombings). The reason should be obvious; the bombers do not have the ability to set their explosives like an explosive demo crew. They pull it up as close as possible in a container truck, then set it off.

Nobody is going to divide 2 million pounds of C-4 into 1 lb. packages, then distribute the 2 million charges throughout a target individually in ordere to set off a terroristic bombing attack. It's not possible.

Why consider it?

I'm not really considering it. The CT is a load of bunk. But since many of them believe that the WTC was wired to blow, and some of them think it was done in the days or weeks preceding the incident, I thought to wonder exactly what it would take to do that. Others on here have already figured out what volume of explosives it would take to do the job. So, hypothetically speaking, if we were to use that amount to wire the WTC properly, to bring it down in a controlled demolition, how much time would that take?

I suspect that the answer is ridiculously long enough to shut down a few more CTers.

 

[beachnut]

hitler shaves with...

Occam's razor

is that how Hitler shaved?

let see, some CT are just theories, based on some incomplete but not missing facts

some CT are junk' and will be only theory forever lacking proof or facts, made up by so called experts for their own insane or politically biased ideas

if you are calling NAZI Germany a CT, then it is not, you can prove all of Hitlers little cappers, and he left a trail

so a CT that is fact is just a C

NO, is the short answer

but YES fit the 9/11 kooks all around

unless you have breaking news on real facts?

 

[Horatius]

So, hypothetically speaking, if we were to use that amount to wire the WTC properly, to bring it down in a controlled demolition, how much time would that take?

I suspect that the answer is ridiculously long enough to shut down a few more CTers.

You'd think that, but we've had quite a few ignore or belittle that very argument.

I think most of these CTists have never done any actual physical labour in their lives, as they have absolutely no sense for how long such jobs would actually take, and how hard the work would be. They seem to think a small number of people could bang it off in a weekend, with no one else the wiser.

 

[tsig]

How to do it

You'd think that, but we've had quite a few ignore or belittle that very argument.

I think most of these CTists have never done any actual physical labour in their lives, as they have absolutely no sense for how long such jobs would actually take, and how hard the work would be. They seem to think a small number of people could bang it off in a weekend, with no one else the wiser.

Well, that's how they did thier little hoax.

None of the CT'ers I have read have any notion of reality.

The whole world only exists in thier head.