Press for truth!

[dirtywick]

Hi,

What I'm saying is that there is a difference between the U.S. military actions and those of a terrorist group. A difference just like the difference between, say, manslaughter and first degree murder. Rarely does the U.S military intentionally try to harm civillians, and most of the time policy and tactics go out of their way to try and prevent civillian casualties.
Terrorists, prety well by definition, intentionally target civillians.

To add to that, Islamic terrorists intentionally target civilians and consider their deaths a great victory, according to Dr. Hani Sibai, the Director of London's Al-Maqreze Center for Historical Studies.

It's pretty hard to consider the US as a terrorist institution when they're taking the complete opposite approach, or alternatively for the sake of those of you don't believe that, the terrorists openly admit that each civilian death is a great victory for Islam and they don't believe that there's such a thing as a civilian, and the US does not and has not ever issued a statement like that.

I was in Afghanistan four months after Sep 11th attatched to a Civil Affairs unit out of North Carolina. The Army isn't just there to "kill people and break things", there are many units that are dedicated to, as per the mission statement, win the hearts and minds of the locals. They do this by rebuilding, educating, feeding, protecting, and maintaining relations with the average joe. There's been a lot more time, money, and energy spent towards that goal than anything else.

 

[Hellbound]

Oliver:

So, instead of saying something simple and easily understandable like:

"The U.S. tends to think its way of doing things and its ideas are right, and forces those on the rest of the world. Terrorists do the same."

You instead left out the parts that would actually make the point?

I'd agree with that, to a degree. I don't agree that this makes the U.S. and terrorists the smae, just depends on which side you stand on. I'd like to believe that even people who disagree with U.S. policy could see that our goals, methods, and tactics differ substanially from those of terrorist organizations and operatives. And that is the point I was trying to make.

On policy, I agree. The U.S. makes quite a few bad policy decisions. We make mistakes. We do have a tendency to involve ourselves in everything. But whether this is a good thing or not is another debate entirely, although I know the sentiment exists (it's common within th U.S. as well, so your comments about Americans not understanding are condescending and, well, just plain wrong).

And Axiom:

On the same point, you seem to be confusing your disagreement with U.S. policy with terrorist activities and motivations. I'm not talking about whether any specific policy is right or wrong, but that the U.S. and it's military do not have any sort of system to promote terrorist activities, nor is this an explicit or implicit goal in its activites.

If you want to discuss the Iraq situation, or Afghanistan, there's probably a lot we'd agree on. Probably some we'd disagree on. But the U.S. actions and terrorists actions, considering each organization as a whole, are simply not equivalent in any way that includes logic and reason. It is an emotional issue for me, precisely because I do care. As I mentioned, I was a medic...most of my treatment was to Iraqi civillians. I held the hand of an Iraqi man, at 1AM, for over 45 minutes, offering words of encouragement (even though we speak differing languages) while transporting him to our medical clinic. The Iraqi civillians do matter, and their deaths are not meaningless. BUt there is a difference between accidental or incidental civillian deaths and intentional civillian deaths. The lack of ability or lack of desire to draw this distinction is what I take issue with.

 

[Stellafane]

...I guess you are an us-citizen - what means: You´re making a simple
failure in your thoughts, bacause your thoughts are based on what you
believe. But believing is not knowing

Look Oliver, I don't know if it's partly due to some language barrier thing, but you're being incredibly insulting. I'm an American citezen, so that means I'm "making a simple failure in my thoughts"? So due to the fact I'm American, this must mean I have faulty thinking? That's an utterly bigoted statement, since you're apparently pre-judging all Americans to be unable to think clearly. I certainly hope that kind of bigotry is not prevalent in Germany.

Besides, how the hell do you know what I do or don't know? And how do you know what my thoughts are based on? For your information, my beliefs are based on facts, as I understand them. It's not the other way around -- which ironically is exactly what's wrong with the 9/11 denier movement. They're willing to believe things with zero facts whatsoever. Indeed, they start with the belief, and then try to fit the facts within the framework of that belief. They fail every time, but unfortunately cannot or will not accept it.

But please, stop making judgements about me based on the fact that I'm a citizen of the U.S.A. As the histories of both our countries show, such thinking only leads to disaster.

 

[Hellbound]

Stella:

Check my previous post, I believe he's trying to make the point that both the U.S. and the terrorists seem intent on forcing their worldview on other nations.

Of course, if he'd just said that, instead of saying "the U.S. and the terrorists are the same, just different sides", it would have saved us all a lot of arguing. THe continual insistence that "you're American, so you don't know" didn't help either.

 

[Oliver]

I guess you are an us-citizen - what means: You´re making a simple
failure in your thoughts, because your thoughts are based on what you
believe. But believing is not knowing - or in other words:

A terrorists mind thinks: "I know what´s the truth, what i do
is true, my god is the truth, and everything else is not true,
because only my truth and my way about thinking is the
only truth."

BUT THIS IS WRONG!

You remember my simplyfied "childs example"?
Now read again and tell me what i´m saying:

QUOTE:
It depends on wich side you stand to
claim - the ones on the other side are
the terrorists.

But you have to view it from a neutral
place to see: they´re both - or none
of them.

Like little kids - everyone claims: "He started."
"No, it was him". "Thats not true, he did it."

What do parents say in this case - from their
neutral position? .... "i don´t care who started..."

That´s exactly my point of view: I don´t care
what you say - because i don´t care who
started. It does not matter at all.

Think about it. I know you´re still in your old
position. Think neutral.

Added: Beside usa, 911, presidents, rights, terrorists,
al quaida and so on. Try to leave this side out of your
mind for a moment.

You may miss the other side right now, am i wrong?






Answer the question...
ADDED: Answer it to yourself - then to me...

 

[Stellafane]

Stella:

Check my previous post, I believe he's trying to make the point that both the U.S. and the terrorists seem intent on forcing their worldview on other nations.

Of course, if he'd just said that, instead of saying "the U.S. and the terrorists are the same, just different sides", it would have saved us all a lot of arguing. THe continual insistence that "you're American, so you don't know" didn't help either.

You may be right. But that's not what I was reacting to. It's precisely the attitude you articulate as "you're American, so you don't know." Sheesh, how narrow-minded can you get? Since when do you score debate points through flat-out bigotry? Screw that...

 

[Hellbound]

Well, Oliver, I'd love to answer the question.

But first, I'd like to know if I was correct in my assumption of what you are saying?

Also, what, exactly, are you asking? What do you mean by "you may miss the other side now"?

Edited to Add:

Well, Stella, we can just turn it around, and forget the debate all together. I mean, since he isn't American, that means he's making a simple failure in his thoughts, because his thoughts are based on what he believes (repeat without further explanation)

 

[Childlike Empress]

@Stellafane:

No, it happened because the germans followed him. They thought he was the man that would do the "right" thing and secure them from the versailles treaty, unemployment etc. In general: their fears. The majority first thought he and his obsession with the JOOOS were a bit strange but nearly no one wanted to really look at the horrific consequences "Mein Kampf" implied. Propaganda did the rest.

If I wanted to get nasty, I'd point out that it was Germans -- your predecessors -- who elected Hitler, supported him, did all his dirty work. [...]

Since you presume some sort of superiority, let me tell you a little something about Hitler that you've neglected to mention. Hitler came to prominence in large part through anti-Semitism. He demonized Jews, and got average Germans to believe their downdrodden plight was due to a vast Jewish conspiracy to rule the world and keep the German race from achieving its rightful prominence.

What new thing is it that you think you told me?

I really wish i am wrong concerning 911 and the rise of fascism in the west today (Bush=Hitler is an extreme oversimplifiing of the situation) but i doubt it and i will do everything i can to stop this development, even if i annoy the people here with my efforts.

I think it's obvious that this is an opinion and not a claim that "it is happening".

That is a flat-out lie and again, you know it. A small group of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists conducted the 9/11 attacks, on that any reasonable person must agree. But I defy you to find a single member of this forum who have ever said all Islamists are out to take over the world. So prove it to me -- it's your claim, so prove to me that a majority of us believe there's a "vast and sinister" conspiracy involving Islamists to take over the world. If you can't, your options are to retract that claim, or let yourself stand exposed as a liar.

You know the difference between "islamists" and "moslems", do you? Your CT buddies are unfortunatly a very large number of people. I didn't speak of the people on this forum alone. But if you want examples here, i think it's safe to say that at least gumboot and MarkyX are convinced that they are a dangerous threat and want to take over the world.

 

[Pardalis]

I guess you are an us-citizen - what means: You´re making a simple
failure in your thoughts, because your thoughts are based on what you
believe. But believing is not knowing - or in other words:

A terrorists mind thinks: "I know what´s the truth, what i do
is true, my god is the truth, and everything else is not true,
because only my truth and my way about thinking is the
only truth."

BUT THIS IS WRONG!

You remember my simplyfied "childs example"?
Now read again and tell me what i´m saying:

QUOTE:
It depends on wich side you stand to
claim - the ones on the other side are
the terrorists.

But you have to view it from a neutral
place to see: they´re both - or none
of them.

Like little kids - everyone claims: "He started."
"No, it was him". "Thats not true, he did it."

What do parents say in this case - from their
neutral position? .... "i don´t care who started..."

That´s exactly my point of view: I don´t care
what you say - because i don´t care who
started. It does not matter at all.

Think about it. I know you´re still in your old
position. Think neutral.

Added: Beside usa, 911, presidents, rights, terrorists,
al quaida and so on. Try to leave this side out of your
mind for a moment.

You may miss the other side right now, am i wrong?


Answer the question...

Oliver, this doesn't make any sense.

And BTW, I'm not an American.

 

[Stellafane]

...Answer the question...

Happily...as soon as you apologize for insulting me with your narrow-minded bigotry.

 

[Oliver]

Well, Oliver, I'd love to answer the question.

But first, I'd like to know if I was correct in my assumption of what you are saying?

Also, what, exactly, are you asking? What do you mean by "you may miss the other side now"?

You are beginning to understand, Huntsman.
The other side is or i would prefer to say are:

The billions of people who have other points of
view - their truths. (Stellafane has problems to
understand that.)

Are they Wrong?

No. They also believe in what they´ve learned. And
i´m talking about normal people, not talking about
terrorists or whatever.

But as i said:
Believing is not knowning at all.

And it does not excuse to interact because of believing!

 

[Childlike Empress]

Besides, how the hell do you know what I do or don't know? And how do you know what my thoughts are based on?

Of course I think it can happen anywhere, but you know damn well that's not what you said.

That is a flat-out lie and again, you know it.

 

[Pardalis]

The "other side" is people who think there is no islamic terrorism?

 

[Pardalis]

Oliver, who attacked America on september 11 2001?

 

[Stellafane]

...What new thing is it that you think you told me?

Huh?

...I really wish i am wrong concerning 911 and the rise of fascism in the west today (Bush=Hitler is an extreme oversimplifiing of the situation) but i doubt it and i will do everything i can to stop this development, even if i annoy the people here with my efforts.

...I think it's obvious that this is an opinion and not a claim that "it is happening"...

Oh come on, now you're just playing dumb. "I really wish i am wrong concerning 911 and the rise of fascism in the west today...but i doubt it and i will do everything i can to stop this development." That isn't stating your belief that fascism is on the rise in America? A belief you attempted to defend with the ridiculous argument that it can happen anywhere, as if that supports your statement that it is happening in America? You're just being silly now.

...You know the difference between "islamists" and "moslems", do you? Your CT buddies are unfortunatly a very large number of people. I didn't speak of the people on this forum alone. But if you want examples here, i think it's safe to say that at least gumboot and MarkyX are convinced that they are a dangerous threat and want to take over the world.

I'll let MarkyX and Gumboot speak for themselves. But you said most of us believe in a "vast" Islamic conspiracy to take over the world. Prove that most of us believe this -- or retract your statement.

 

[Oliver]

Oliver, who attacked America on september 11 2001?

19 Hijacker who belived in their truth. It´s very well investigated.

 

[Stellafane]

Hey you know how to use the quote feature, good for you.

Your point? Or have you already gone bankrupt in the debate department?

ETA: Oh, I get it, the three quotes are supposed to be connected somehow. Leave it to a CTist to see connections where none exists...

 

[Pardalis]

19 Hijacker who belived in their truth. It´s very well investigated.

"believed in their truth" ? Are you apologizing for them?

ETA: and BTW, if it's well investigated, why do you ask for another "international" investigation?????

 

[Oliver]

"believed in their truth" ? Are you apologizing for them?

ETA: and BTW, if it's well investigated, why do you ask for another "international" investigation?????

Off course i do NOT think so. They were bastards to do so.

I wan´t to know the reasons for al quaida. I want to know what happend behind
the curtains. Maybe al-quaida makes the same failure as the nazis. Maybe every-
one who does not act neutral makes this mistake:

Quote from earlier: "Believing is not knowning at all.
And it does not excuse to interact because of believing!"

 

[Pardalis]

Off course i do NOT think so. They were bastards to do so.

So what the hell are we talking about?

And answer my question about the "international" investigation please, I think it's very relevant to this thread..