Press for truth!

[Hellbound]

You are beginning to understand, Huntsman.
The other side is or i would prefer to say are:

The billions of people who have other points of
view - their truths. (Stellafane has problems to
understand that.)

Okay, now you are being incredibly condescending.

I'm not "beginning to understand" anything. I was already well aware of the idea you are stating. I'd imagine Stellafane is, as well. It isn't exactly ground-breaking.

The problem was in your inability to clearly articulate your point, and your quick jump from trying to explain what you meant to a simple statement of "you're American, so you don't know and you think wrong".

Are they Wrong?

No. They also believe in what they´ve learned. And
i´m talking about normal people, not talking about
terrorists or whatever.

Quite frankly, I'd say some are, some aren;t, but more likely most are right on some and worng on others..and that applies to the U.S. as well.

But as i said:
Believing is not knowning at all.

And it does not excuse to interact because of believing!

And that's pretty much the motto of the JREF (to a degree, but not really a good paraphrase...see below).

So, what point now are you actually trying to make? That people disagree? We know that. That others view us as imposing our will? We know that. Does this make the U.S. equivalent to terrorsits? Only if you ignore every other aspect of difference between the two. Anyone who draws the two as equivalent to any meaningful degree is wrong.

Of course, all action is based on belief. If you don't believe something you won't act on it. That's fairly simple.

The question is whether a belief is supported by the facts. That's the determination that needs to be made.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Stellafane: You said it is happening now in America.
Childlike Empress: I think it's obvious that this is an opinion and not a claim that "it is happening".
Stellafane: That isn't stating your belief that fascism is on the rise in America?

Stellafane: Huh?
Childlike Empress: Huh!

 

[Oliver]

Okay, now you are being incredibly
So, what point now are you actually trying to make? That people disagree? We know that. That others view us as imposing our will? We know that. Does this make the U.S. equivalent to terrorsits? Only if you ignore every other aspect of difference between the two. Anyone who draws the two as equivalent to any meaningful degree is wrong.

Maybe this is exactly what other people think
if they talk about QUOTE: "some american ignorance".
Don´t reply to this - i´ve quoted it, okay?

You simpley don´t understand it and this is very sad.

 

[Pardalis]

I think you are both making an analogy between the Bush administration and Nazi Germany, and trying real hard to backtrack and say that you don't when faced with the question.

I think it's very cowardly.

 

[Hellbound]

Oliver:

You just can't explain it and this is very sad.

So you're saying some people believe the U.S. and terrorists are equivalent?

Even this is not news.

And I would definately say these people are wrong, yes.

 

[Stellafane]

...The billions of people who have other points of
view - their truths. (Stellafane has problems to
understand that.)...

Oliver my man, I have no trouble at all understanding this. Indeed, I suspect I understand it quite a bit better that you do. And do you know why I say that? Because I don't insult you by assuming certain characteristics of you simply because you're German. And I don't further insult you by claiming your disagreement with me must be due to a lack of understanding on your part.

You see, I assume you've come about your point of view by examining what you believe is true and basing your opinions and world view on that. It isn't because of your country or origin, or some mental failure. It's because we, as individuals, thought things over and each came up with different conclusions. We each have different points of view. The problem is, you don't seem to be able to accept that I don't agree with you. So you assume it's some inherent inability in Americans, or some personal failure on my part to understand that each human has a right to perceive the universe in their own way.

It's a weak way to argue, and it betrays quite a bit of intolerance and narrow-minded bigotry -- hardly a good moral platform from which to presume to lecture me on the virtues of understanding how others think.

 

[Stellafane]

Stellafane: You said it is happening now in America.
Childlike Empress: I think it's obvious that this is an opinion and not a claim that "it is happening".
Stellafane: That isn't stating your belief that fascism is on the rise in America?

Stellafane: Huh?
Childlike Empress: Huh!

You made more sense when you were just stringing my quotes together without additional verbiage.

 

[jhunter1163]

Childlike:

I don't think fascism is on the rise in the US, and yes, I'm an American. I don't feel afraid to express any opinion I have, nor does anyone I know. Rest assured, George W. Bush has very few fans here, and is going to spend the last two years of his term holed up in the White House for the most part so as not to damage the re-election chances of members of his party.

We don't have a perfect system here, by any means. But it does work. And our freedoms are as unlimited as they ever have been, the Patriot Act notwithstanding. I can still scream "I HATE BUSH!!" from the roof of my house if I want to without being visited in the middle of the night by tall men in black suits. And if I can't bring a water bottle on an airplane, I understand that there are tradeoffs, freedoms for safety.

 

[Oliver]

Oliver:
You just can't explain it and this is very sad.
So you're saying some people believe the U.S. and terrorists are equivalent?
Even this is not news.
And I would definately say these people are wrong, yes.

Yes, i´m not able to explain how it feels to be in love
or how it feels if you lost someone. You can´t explain
it to someone who does not know. And this is sad, too,
because you don´t understand it.

2. No, i don´t believe that us and terror is equivalent, but
the muslem world thinks that americas intervention in their
belives are also terror. And this leads to hate and new terror.

I think you are both making an analogy between the Bush administration and Nazi Germany, and trying real hard to backtrack and say that you don't when faced with the question.
I think it's very cowardly.

I´m pointing to something you don´t understand or
you can´t accept.

@Childlike: You know what i´m saying? Do you think
there´s a better way to explain it? Maybe an english
word or term for what i try to explain?

 

[Pardalis]

Let me put some words into your mouth Oliver.

You say Al qaeda had in their minds very good reasons to attack America on 9/11, and in America's mind, they had very good reason to retaliate. So according to this logic, both are terrorists.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[Pardalis]

Yes, i´m not able to explain how it feels to be in love
or how it feels if you lost someone. You can´t explain
it to someone who does not know. And this is sad, too,
because you don´t understand it.

That's the problem, you're talking about feelings. You have a feeling America is turning into a fascist state. Your feeling is based on nothing, except fear. Maybe you being a German prompted that feeling.

We want facts. Nothing is showing that this is happening.

2. No, i don´t believe that us and terror is equivalent, but
the muslem world thinks that americas intervention in their
belives are also terror. And this leads to hate and new terror.

No news to me.

 

[Oliver]

Let me put some words into your mouth Oliver.

You say Al qaeda had in their minds very good reasons to attack America on 9/11, and in America's mind, they had very good reason to retaliate. So according to this logic, both are terrorists.

Is that what you are saying?

Pardalis, i´m talking about what leads to hate.
I´m talking about what leads to "nationalsozialismus".
I also talk about what leads to the holocaust.

And maybe Al-Quaida raised from an invisible
hate of millions or more of people. I said maybe.

 

[Pardalis]

Oliver, this thread started when Childlike wanted to show us a movie which accuses the Bush administration of having a hand in the 9/11 attacks, and requesting an "international" investigation.

Now you're talking about the very common fact that people hate other people.

And somehow, you're linking this all to the Holocaust.

 

[Oliver]

That's the problem, you're talking about feelings.

No, Pardalis. I don´t talk about feelings. I talk
about ignorance in the world. It´s hard to explain,
like the examples i made. Why? Because it´s hard
to change a point of view, someone allready made
some time ago.

 

[Oliver]

Oliver, this thread started when Childlike wanted to show us a movie which accuses the Bush administration of having a hand in the 9/11 attacks, and requesting an "international" investigation.
Now you're talking about the very common fact that people hate other people.
And somehow, you're linking this all to the Holocaust.

Don´t ask me how this happend during the conversation
between me and Gumboot. It´s gone completely off-track.
I apologize for that.

 

[Hellbound]

No, i don´t believe that us and terror is equivalent, but the muslem world thinks that americas intervention in their
belives are also terror. And this leads to hate and new terror.

Okay, stop.

You are wrong.

Where have we interferred in the "beliefs of the Muslim world?"

We have acted to protect our allies and our interests, and worked through non-combative channels to make changes, but nothing that anywhere approaches terrorism.

If these people think this, then yes, they are wrong.

If all you're saying is that "these people believe this, which motivates them" then, again, this is not news.

They are, however, objectively wrong, despite their beliefs.

I'm stil not seeing that you're actually making any point other than "people believe different things, and this causes them to act". Great. Wonderful, call the Nobel commity. Every time we try to take what you're saying and pin you down to exactly what you mean, you whip out the old "you can't understand" BS and act superior.

Sorry, but I'm done. Unless you can cut the crap and quit acting like the failure in communication is due to some intellectual failure on our part instead of your inadequate explanation, then go find someone else to bother.

 

[Oliver]

Okay, stop. You are wrong.........

I prefer to quote Pardalis here:
"No news to me."

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1919213&postcount=311

 

[Pardalis]

Oliver, don't pin someone else's quote against someone's opinion to support your own. It's dishonest.

 

[Oliver]

Oliver, don't pin someone else's quote against someone's opinion to support your own. It's dishonest.

I quoted your view because i have the same view like you
about it.

And while he does not listen to me, i thought maybe he
understands it better if someone from Canada agree with
this point - to shorten a useless discussion.

 

[Pardalis]

The point I agreed with you is that the Muslim world, at least a big part of it, seems to think that America's actions are terrorism. I do not agree with that assessment, but I acknowledge that this is what they believe. That is what is not news to me.

And as Hunstman said, they are wrong.