Loose Change

[Regnad Kcin]

Gosh, I'll try parsing this attempt at "English:"

Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?

geg, my sweet, you're the last person I know to be going on about evidence. Nevertheless, we know that people frequently use simile and allusion when communicating. "Sounds like," "feels like," "smells like," and any number of similar descriptive short cuts are simple devices that happen to be effective. Doesn't mean that if something "tastes like" chicken it is chicken.

You, nor any of your cult brothers, have presented evidence there were bombs at the WTC. Evidence. Not what a video "looks like."

Now off with you to the next session with your "wife." And be sure to carry your cell phone.

 

[Ramooone]

There are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, very much like that one.

there is no stupid questions, just stupid people

Is what you think it was that exploded an evidence of what you think it was that exploded?

did you hear that? thats my head exploding from this grammatical nightmare. it wasn't a controlled demoltion, my brain was built to sustain the impact of bad grammar, i'm actually surprised it didnt explode as soon as i read this but after an hour or so there was a catastrophic collapse. The blood shooting out of my ears is not from squibs, its from cerebral pancaking.

 

[chipmunk stew]

The LC forum mods seem to have backed off a bit if anyone wants in. Maybe because they've gotten more traffic--harder to police--or maybe because they've been getting bad "press" about their heavy-handedness. They have a dedicated SKEPTICS Forum, which I'm mostly sticking to for the time being.

Anyway, it's much easier to sharpen your teeth over there than it is here, where we only get to fight over scraps like geggy.

 

[dubfan]

Interesting, suddenly 'Terrorcell' has become a tiny, weak, voice of reason in that thread. The moderators, meanwhile, are still playing their usual stupid games.

OMFG I do believe you're right -- I think I see what might be a glimmer of reason starting to flicker over there.

 

[Gravy]

As for trained emergency personnel not being like the rest of us, it's worth looking into the interviews and testimony of EMT Patricia Ondrovic. She was outside her ambulance on Vesey street near WTC 6 when the south tower collapsed. Just before that collapse, a supervisor announced that there might be an incoming plane. This was a big surprise to her, since she had thought the damage to the towers was caused by bombs. Here are some of the things she remembers as she ran for her life:

–She tried to enter the lobby of WTC 6 but was told by security to get away. She saw a series of at least six flashes go off along the ceiling of the WTC 6 lobby, accompanied by popping noises.

–She believed that those flashes were demolitions explosives going off.

–She ran north and west as at least three parked cars exploded around her, one of them setting her coat on fire.

-While in North Park she believed she saw an airplane explode in a fireball over New Jersey.

– She hooked up with another ambulance about 15 blocks north and told the driver to take them out of the city, to drive to Westchester.

– A supervisor stopped the ambulance and told it to turn back and go towards the WTC. She tried to refuse.

–She had a panic attack and was having trouble breatihing from all the dust she had inhaled, and was treated in the back of the ambulance, then taken to St. Vincent's Medical Center.

–It wasn't until a week later that she learned it was the collapse of the south tower she had been running from. She had thought it was a bomb.

That's what terror can do, even to someone who deals with life-and-death emergencies on a daily basis.

 

[Polaris]

Oddly enough, it's most damaging if dispersed in an aerosol mist and ignited, producing what's known as a Fuel-Air Explosive (FAE).

Not sure if you're familiar with explosive ratings, but they each are associated with an RF value. The RF value is a comparison of their relative explosive force. By definition, TNT has an RF of 1. Black powder is something like .5 (so 2 lbs of black powder is equivalent to 1 pound of TNT). C-4 checks in about 1.3 or 1.4 (can't recall which).

FAE's rated with an RF value clock in around 5. Both Jet Fuel and Gasoline can highly explosive, in the right conditions.

I don't know the first thing about physics, let alone the RF scale. But I wonder if the impact of the planes into the WTC created a vapor explosion - if it did, was it considered in the NIST report? I suppose not, actually, given how long the towers remained standing.

 

[Gravy]

I don't know the first thing about physics, let alone the RF scale. But I wonder if the impact of the planes into the WTC created a vapor explosion - if it did, was it considered in the NIST report? I suppose not, actually, given how long the towers remained standing.

Well, there's the question of what caused the explosion in the freight elevator shaft that also tore up the north tower lobby and created a soot cloud. Witnesses dozens of floors below the impact site reported smelling kerosene (commercial jet fuel is basically kerosene). It seems likely that liquid fuel poured down the elevator shaft and its vapors ignited. There's also the possiblilty the the fireball from the initial impact traveled down the shaft, but I don't know how likely it is that it would make it that far down.

 

[Pardalis]

As for trained emergency personnel not being like the rest of us, it's worth looking into the interviews and testimony of EMT Patricia Ondrovic. She was outside her ambulance on Vesey street near WTC 6 when the south tower collapsed. Just before that collapse, a supervisor announced that there might be an incoming plane. This was a big surprise to her, since she had thought the damage to the towers was caused by bombs. Here are some of the things she remembers as she ran for her life:

–She tried to enter the lobby of WTC 6 but was told by security to get away. She saw a series of at least six flashes go off along the ceiling of the WTC 6 lobby, accompanied by popping noises.

–She believed that those flashes were demolitions explosives going off.

–She ran north and west as at least three parked cars exploded around her, one of them setting her coat on fire.

-While in North Park she believed she saw an airplane explode in a fireball over New Jersey.

– She hooked up with another ambulance about 15 blocks north and told the driver to take them out of the city, to drive to Westchester.

– A supervisor stopped the ambulance and told it to turn back and go towards the WTC. She tried to refuse.

–She had a panic attack and was having trouble breatihing from all the dust she had inhaled, and was treated in the back of the ambulance, then taken to St. Vincent's Medical Center.

–It wasn't until a week later that she learned it was the collapse of the south tower she had been running from. She had thought it was a bomb.

That's what terror can do, even to someone who deals with life-and-death emergencies on a daily basis.

What an impressive story. Poor woman, I can't imagine what she lived through.

That's what sickens me about the CTs, they have no regards for these people who lived first hand the terror. They say they do, that they're just after the "Truth", but the truth is that these attacks exactly did what they were designed to do: terrorise people and create chaos. To this day, thanks to the CTs, the chaos continues.

 

[Pardalis]

Anyway, it's much easier to sharpen your teeth over there than it is here, where we only get to fight over scraps like geggy.

I don't think I'd be able to keep my cool with that crowd. I can barely restrain myself from yelling at geggy as it is. At least geggy is kind of funny, in his own gung-ho absurdity. But posters at LC like Terrorcell and Jenabell are just simply viscious and mean.

 

[Polaris]

Well, there's the question of what caused the explosion in the freight elevator shaft that also tore up the north tower lobby and created a soot cloud. Witnesses dozens of floors below the impact site reported smelling kerosene (commercial jet fuel is basically kerosene). It seems likely that liquid fuel poured down the elevator shaft and its vapors ignited. There's also the possiblilty the the fireball from the initial impact traveled down the shaft, but I don't know how likely it is that it would make it that far down.

Forgot about that. It makes sense though - if the jet fuel was vaporized in the shafts, and ignited, based on the previous post's claim that vaporized jet fuel is 5 times as explosive as TNT, then it would certainly explain the lobby damage. That's interesting - is it at all unreasonable to suggest that a fuel/air explosion was caused in the elevator shafts? I mean, if there ever was a day when the "impossible" could happen...

 

[chipmunk stew]

Dylan's dream becomes his nightmare:
http://brainster.blogspot.com/2006_05_14_brainster_archive.html#114806868506195103

 

[Belz...]

Neuralizers.
Teh Globalists use them all the time.

Some of us call them Persuadertrons.

 

[Belz...]

Shock and psychological disturbance

There's no such thing as selective memory loss, geggy, except in movies.

They're trained and expected to remain calm and in control during panicky situations.

Which doesn't preclude non-firefighters remaining calm and remembering everything perfectly, according to your own theory.

As long as the government wants it to last...

So.... it's NOT the shock that causes the amnesia, but the GOVERNMENT ?

Are you insane ?

I mean, remember what I said about the repetive images of planes crashing/towers falling being shown on tv all over nyc during the aftermath of the attacks?

You give the "shock" too much credit. The fact that you didn't mention it until you were cornered by everyone here shows how dishonest you are when arguing.

Like me, people are waking up to the fact that sept 11 was an inside job. It's a no brainer once amnesia start to wear off.

And, for some reason, non-americans ALSO have amnesia ?

They've done a very sloppy job trying to cover it up, like the way they couldn't.

If they're sloppy, then they couldn't have possibly pulled it off in the first place, but you've never answered that particular argument.

hide the fact there were no WMD's in Iraq...the only problem is that the mainstream media refuses to touch it (sept 11).

What does that have to do with anything ?

Blocking out their memories. Do you expect people to remember they were experiencing amnesia? That's the beauty of it.

You mean it's tremendously convenient to your theory because it's non-falsifiable.

It's in human nature to freak out during a terror attack as extraodinary as sept 11 unless you were trained like firefighters to remain calm and in control during these catastrophic situation.

It's also in human nature to, dig this, remember shocking experiences even more than non-shocking ones, as a survival trait.

Bobkark...you remind me of luke skywalker when he found out he was the son of darth vader. Do you remember his reaction?

Oooohhh... yeah. Like that fictional character in a fiction movie. That's a powerful argument, indeed.

 

[SezMe]

Well, there's the question of what caused the explosion in the freight elevator shaft that also tore up the north tower lobby and created a soot cloud. Witnesses dozens of floors below the impact site reported smelling kerosene (commercial jet fuel is basically kerosene). It seems likely that liquid fuel poured down the elevator shaft and its vapors ignited. There's also the possiblilty the the fireball from the initial impact traveled down the shaft, but I don't know how likely it is that it would make it that far down.

I read the full 9/11 commission report. If I remember correctly, it said the initial blast traveled down the shafts and blew the doors off on the sixth level basement and injured people who were in the vicinity.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

Oooohhh... yeah. Like that fictional character in a fiction movie. That's a powerful argument, indeed.

I find your lack of faith . . . disturbing.

 

[Belz...]

And yet they continue on, disputing him, disagreeing with him, and all... without providing any proof!

I especially like this little gem:

Building 7 fell UNIFORMLY at absolutely the rate of free fall or just SLIGHTLY more than absolute free fall in a complete vacuum.

Impossible, unless it was brought down by explosives. End of story.

Don't make it any more complicated than it needs to be.

Emphasis mine.

MORE than absolute free fall in a complete vacuum ? How could he calculate that ?

How would explosives ACCELERATE the falling debris to that speed ? Again, never adressed. Just assumed. Sheesh.

 

[Polaris]

I read the full 9/11 commission report. If I remember correctly, it said the initial blast traveled down the shafts and blew the doors off on the sixth level basement and injured people who were in the vicinity.

It would have been following the law of gravity, and it would have simply found the point of least resistance. Must have been one hell of a blast - much bigger than what Loose Change glibly brushes off.

 

[Belz...]

geggy:

Most people remember traumatic events with far greater clarity than the more mundane occurances. It's a survival mechanism that helps us keep potential dangers at the front of our minds, but unfortunately it's also the cause of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Damn! Beat me to it.

Doubtful, BUT, he can quote Star Wars dialog, so that makes him an expert.

He quoted one WORD: "No".

 

[Stellafane]

A request for geggy

Hi geggy. The agent assigned to watch you has asked that I pass along a request to you: The next time you feel the urge to "master your own domain," if you get my drift, please pull a sheet over yourself. The poor girl couldn't stop giggling and we had to give her the afternoon off.

Oh, and she suggests re-inflating your "wife."

 

[Belz...]

Also there are numerous reports from firefighters that they heard something exploding inside the building. I'd have my doubts and would believe it was due to the haziness of their memories if there were as little as one or two reports of those who heard the explosions but that's not the case, there are basically too many of them. Every one of the statements are almost in unision of what they had heard.

How can you ignore so casually ALL the evidence that shows that you're wrong and then accept ANY indication that you may be right ?

You need help, man. Speak to your psycho therapist wife. Then again, if she's the one that fed you that kind of hogwash, you might want to get a REAL psi to help you.