Illegal Immigrants Plan to Boycott May 1

[Cleon]

And this is called wanting to assimilate?

By whom, exactly?

 

[Just thinking]

I guess this will come next ...

I pledge allegiance to my flag for America and to my republic for which it stands: two nations under hesus, with some liberty and no justice at all.

 

[Just thinking]

By whom, exactly?

That's the whole point ... no one would.

 

[Cleon]

That's the whole point ... no one would.

Well, is it supposed to?

 

[Just thinking]

Well, is it supposed to?

That's not the point ...

A large group of people claim they wish to become US citizens (after clearly breaking US immigration laws) and then display an outward act of (in my opinion) non-assimilation. It raises some red flags in my camp.

 

[Cleon]

That's not the point ...

A large group of people claim they wish to become US citizens (after clearly breaking US immigration laws) and then display an outward act of (in my opinion) non-assimilation.

I wasn't aware you had to assimilate to be a citizen.

 

[Just thinking]

I wasn't aware you had to assimilate to be a citizen.

Please go here for the Oath of Citizenship.

 

[Cleon]

Please go here for the Oath of Citizenship.

[SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."[/SIZE]

[/SIZE] As I thought--nothing in there about assimilation. A good thing, too.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Even that's not true. If you've heard it, it does not sound like the original, no matter the words.

ETA: Go here for both words and audio

Thanks. I wonder what it was that I wasted my time translating.

 

[Just thinking]

As I thought--nothing in there about assimilation. A good thing, too.

.

To become a citizen of the US you become part of the US population -- this is a form assimilation. The US population is required to obey US laws. It also makes one bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution and laws of the United States of America. I do not view one wishing to change or alter the US National Anthem as bearing said faith. My opinion.

 

[Cleon]

.

To become a citizen of the US you become part of the US population -- this is a form assimilation.

Only in the broadest definition of the term. You're not required to give up your culture, religion, or language. And, as I said, a good thing, too.

It also makes one bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution and laws of the United States of America. I do not view one wishing to change or alter the US National Anthem as bearing said faith. My opinion.

First, in what way? The Constitution says nothing about the national anthem--if it did, it would be a little weird, considering Francis Scott Key was all of eight years old when the Constitution was written. As for the laws of the USA, well, I sincerely doubt any law prohibits the singing of the national anthem in Spanish. Free speech and all that.

Second, they're not trying to change or alter the US National Anthem. There is no proposal whatsoever to substitute this song for the Star-Spangled Banner. This song is simply a way to express that Spanish-speaking people are already part of the US, that they wouldn't have it any other way, and there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

That's not the point ...

A large group of people claim they wish to become US citizens (after clearly breaking US immigration laws) and then display an outward act of (in my opinion) non-assimilation. It raises some red flags in my camp.

Is a St. Patrick's Day parade an act of "non-assimiliation?". Historically, Irish immigrants were treated with hostility and suspicion as well. There's a distinction you need to make between a person's nationality, and their heritage. As a homeless told me just yesterday, "I am 100% Irish, and 300% U.S. Marine." Being proud of one's heritage as a hispanic person does not diminish from a person's contribution to this country.

BPSCG, the lyrics in Spanish are quite as close to the english version as possible, giving the difference between the two languages. One problem you're encountering there is false cognates. Important words and phrases in it are very hard to translate, such as "...that banner yet wave" is a strange way to say that in even contemporary english, and is a nightmare to translate in spanish.

Keep in mind that it seems like most hispanics in this country don't like this translation of the anthem into spanish,though a Gallup poll would be nice.

 

[pipelineaudio]

A lot of you seem to be perpetuating the same LIE that the media and criminals are.

Equating immigrants with illegal, criminal, tresspassing invaders

There is a BIG difference. Noone has a problem with those who come here legally, the beef is with the criminals who think they are better than everyone else, dont have to wait in line, dont have to obey the same laws as everyone else

 

[ImaginalDisc]

A lot of you seem to be perpetuating the same LIE that the media and criminals are.

Equating immigrants with illegal, criminal, tresspassing invaders

There is a BIG difference. Noone has a problem with those who come here legally, the beef is with the criminals who think they are better than everyone else, dont have to wait in line, dont have to obey the same laws as everyone else

Hombre de paja.

Edit: Aside from entering the country illegally, most illegal immigrants avoid breaking the law. They know that if they're arrested, and it's determined that they are in this country illegally, they will likely be deported.

 

[Cleon]

A lot of you seem to be perpetuating the same LIE that the media and criminals are.

Equating immigrants with illegal, criminal, tresspassing invaders

There is a BIG difference. Noone has a problem with those who come here legally, the beef is with the criminals who think they are better than everyone else, dont have to wait in line, dont have to obey the same laws as everyone else

Hrm. A Boortz fan, methinks.

But in any case, these people's "crimes" are wanting a better life, to work, to study, to make a living for themselves and their families. What horrible, horrible people indeed.

 

[BPSCG]

BPSCG, politics aside, translating songs almost never involves actually translating the actual words. Why? Two reasons:

#1) Words don't always translate exactly. There are nuances of meaning, and when you translate a song, you try to get the inner meaning more than a word-for-word translation.

I understand that, which is why I said:

So, no, this is not a "Spanish version" of The Star Spangled Banner. It would have been, if they had stuck to doing a straight, "singing translation," but they didn't; they changed it, dramatically.

#2) They don't have the same number of syllables from language to language.

Have you ever gone to a performance of an opera translated from the original language into English? They don't change a single note in the entire score. What they change is the words. But they change the words only to fit the meter of the music; they do not change the sense of the original libretto.

For example, let's look at the first nine bars of the final trio from Charles Gounod's opera, Faust, which I'm sure we're all familiar with.*. Marguerite sings in French (and I'm leaving out accent marks here, for you French speakers). I've put hyphens between the syllables so non-French speakers get a rough sense of the pronunciation and the meter:

An-ges pur, an-ges ra-di-eux,
Por-tez mon ame au sein dex cieux!
Dieue just-e,
A toi je m'a-ban-donn-e!
Dieue bon,
Je suis a toi, par-donn-e!

A literal translation would be, adjusting for syntax:

Angels pure, angels radiant,
Carry my soul to the center of the heavens!
Just God,
To you I abandon myself!
Gracious God,
I am yours, forgive me!

That would not "scan" at all. So a singing translation of the above goes as follows:Angel host, shining in the sky,
Lift up my soul to God on high!
Kind heaven,
Let my sin be forgiven!
Oh, God,
Pity a soul, unshriven!

The first translation is a much closer translation of the words. But as you point out, such a translation won't scan. The second translation is not as exact, but it scans and it preserves the sense of the original French.

I have no idea if you speak any other languages,

Passable French...

but if you look up song translations it's almost universal to "re-write" some of the lyrics to fit the meter and "deeper meaning" of the song. Word-for-word translations rarely work in general, much less when you have a rhythm and meter to adhere to. It's a bit of an art form in itself, really, and a lot of times it's not uncommon for a popular song to have several completely different translations in another language.

And there's nothing wrong with that as long as they preserve the sense of the original. And translating songs is nothing. As I've pointed out, entire operas get translated that way. Yes, the words are different, but the same intended meaning is conveyed.

The Illegal Immigrants' Anthem does not do that. Frankly, a lot of the new lyrics are almost nonsensical, for reasons I may decide to get into later. Read it carefully and see if you can figure out what I mean.

* If not, go to the library and check out a CD of it - it's the final scene of the opera, so it should be easy to locate on the disk.

 

[Cleon]

Have you ever gone to a performance of an opera translated from the original language into English?

*groan* No. I can appreciate the massive amount of talent, training, and skill that goes into opera singing, but if it came time to "enjoy" one myself, let's just say I'd rather have an intimate encounter with a sausage grinder.

They don't change a single note in the entire score. What they change is the words. But they change the words only to fit the meter of the music; they do not change the sense of the original libretto.

Well, with a classical style like opera, the notes are what's important. They could be belting out an aria that translates to "All Hail Binky the Clown," and not a whole lot would be lost. Especially if nobody in the audience speaks the language to begin with.

With other styles of music, that's not so much the case. I play roots music (folk, bluegrass, blues, etc), for example. You could write an entire dissertation of how various songs have changed lyrics, notes, and even rhythm has changed through the years.

The Illegal Immigrants' Anthem does not do that.

Two things: First, I simply disagree. Second, it's not "the illegal immigrants' anthem." To my knowledge, the people putting this together are all either citizens or legal residents.

Frankly, a lot of the new lyrics are almost nonsensical, for reasons I may decide to get into later. Read it carefully and see if you can figure out what I mean.

They make sense in Spanish, to me anyway. ID, que piensas?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Hombre de paja.

Edit: Aside from entering the country illegally, most illegal immigrants avoid breaking the law. They know that if they're arrested, and it's determined that they are in this country illegally, they will likely be deported.

Youre either a totaly liar or completely ignorant

The whole system of life becomes crime. First is the procurement and manufacture and dealing of fake documents

Driving with no liscence

No insurance

I as a person who drives MINIMALLY am on my third hit and slam from a illegal mobile. Its the familiar "everyone jumps out of the truck and runs off, leaving the truck in the intersection" to anyone in this area

If you are willing to violate the law of sovereingty and tresspassing, whats a few more? The whole existence is criminal, your premise is completely false

 

[pipelineaudio]

Hrm. A Boortz fan, methinks.

But in any case, these people's "crimes" are wanting a better life, to work, to study, to make a living for themselves and their families. What horrible, horrible people indeed.

Then YOU pay for them

I cant afford it any longer, neither can my neighbors

You pay or you [edit] - really have no say in the matter

 

[Just thinking]

Only in the broadest definition of the term.

"I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen ... "

Sounds rather specific to me and rather drastic a change.

You're not required to give up your culture, religion, or language. And, as I said, a good thing, too.

I never said that as well. And no ... you specifically said "nothing in there about assimilation ..." and in just one reply you are backing off that somewhat.

First, in what way?

Intent ... in my opinion.

The Constitution says nothing about the national anthem--if it did, it would be a little weird, considering Francis Scott Key was all of eight years old when the Constitution was written. As for the laws of the USA, well, I sincerely doubt any law prohibits the singing of the national anthem in Spanish. Free speech and all that.

Thank goodness for that ... it makes some things a little easier to see.

Second, they're not trying to change or alter the US National Anthem. There is no proposal whatsoever to substitute this song for the Star-Spangled Banner. This song is simply a way to express that Spanish-speaking people are already part of the US, that they wouldn't have it any other way, and there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

And that's your opinion.