Illegal Immigrants Plan to Boycott May 1

manny said:
No, it won't have much of an impact because it's one day. Boycotted stores will make up the sales on Sunday and Tuesday. The meat packing plant will schedule an extra run during cleaning time Monday at midnight. Etc.
Click to expand...

It's like those "buy nothing" or "buy no gas day" protests you mean, in that purchases are just made another day?
 
My impression is that we don't know what the impact will be if this actually changes things politically. I don't think it has much of a chance to do that long-term, but it will have some short term political impact...which is known to grow into things major.

The point is that many of these illegals work for wages that a citizen would not. That's not to say that no citizen would take the job, only that an illegal is willing to do it cheaper and, for those of you who have run a business and understand the employer-implications, will do it without any withholdings.

It's usually based on day-labor, and all under the table. No deduction for the employer, but also much less expense.

It's hard to calculate the total economic impact of every illegal either leaving or suddenly becoming legal through declaration.

On the one hand, you've got tons of people that actually get refunds greater than the amount paid in (being low wage workers) rather than not paying tax in the first place, draining the taxpayer pool of resources (police, schools, hospitals, etc).

Will it wash in the end?

Donno.

I do know that above board is usually more profitable.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
It's like those "buy nothing" or "buy no gas day" protests you mean, in that purchases are just made another day?
Click to expand...

Yup. About the only real economic effect I imagine might be on smaller convenience businesses in communities with heavy populations of immigrants -- coffee shops, bodegas, stuff like that. Which is a pity, since those businesses themselves are more likely than others to be owned by immigrants. Happily, I think a single day's lost business won't kill many of those businesses.
 
Cleon said:
And again, you miss the point.
Click to expand...

Do you want to have a discussion or flame war?

I post my opinion on the issue you tell me I'm ignorant of it since I don't read the Spanish-news, on top of it you did not actually post the Spanish-news part.

You tell me I am ignorant because all I watch is "Fox News" (even though I don't nor ever said I did) and yet you don't say what it is I am getting wrong.

How about you state your point and we go from there.
 
The construction business will take a huge hit if the boycott is actually successful. I seriously doubt it will be. They'll offer fifty cents more an hour and fill every truck they have.
 
manny said:
Yup. About the only real economic effect I imagine might be on smaller convenience businesses in communities with heavy populations of immigrants -- coffee shops, bodegas, stuff like that. Which is a pity, since those businesses themselves are more likely than others to be owned by immigrants. Happily, I think a single day's lost business won't kill many of those businesses.
Click to expand...

Quite a few of those businesses are actively participating in the boycott, actually. Funny thing--when your labor pool and consumer base is under attack, you tend to side with them.
 
Cleon, what will be the impact of the boycott?

Economically?

Politically?

Go on record. Win the million.
 
Cleon said:
Quite a few of those businesses are actively participating in the boycott, actually. Funny thing--when your labor pool and consumer base is under attack, you tend to side with them.
Click to expand...
Oh, doubtless. That's true of many non-immigrant owned businesses, too, I'm sure. I'm just trying to cuff the impact of the thing. My prediction is that there might be some Korean bodega owners crying in their soju Monday night, but that'll be about it.
 
manny said:
Oh, doubtless. That's true of many non-immigrant owned businesses, too, I'm sure. I'm just trying to cuff the impact of the thing. My prediction is that there might be some Korean bodega owners crying in their soju Monday night, but that'll be about it.
Click to expand...

For the most part Korean business in LA, for example, employ Koreans.

Of course, Cleaon does not want to say who supports what and what the point is, but then those of us that don't speak Spanish might be too ignorant or stupid to understand the issue.
 
Grammatron said:
Of course, Cleaon does not want to say who supports what and what the point is,
Click to expand...

I already stated what the point is. I had to quote it again, actually.

If you don't like it, that's your problem, not mine.

but then those of us that don't speak Spanish might be too ignorant or stupid to understand the issue.
Click to expand...

I never called you ignorant or stupid. Nor would I, as I don't think you are ignorant or stupid. Just wrong. ;)

I would say, however, that you're uninformed.
 
Grammatron said:
Of course, Cleaon does not want to say who supports what and what the point is
Click to expand...
Oh, that's not Cleon, that's the left generally. Thank Ed, because that's why they don't ever get anything done.

Here you've got an economic protest which everyone agrees won't have an economic impact. It is meant to "draw attention" to the economic impact of immigrants but that attention will be felt solely by people who already know it and broadly support the aims of the people who will be boycotting them. In the meantime it'll be a great opportunity for the commies to fly American flags upside down and wave banners claiming that Mexico is the rightful owner of California, increasing resistance to the perfectly legitimate aims of the vast majority of the marchers.

I almost wish I were anti-immigration; then I could find this all amusing. Instead it's just very very sad.
 
FreeChile said:
Anybody listen to the National Anthem in Spanish yet.
Click to expand...
Point of order. We need to nip this one in the bud right now.

It's not "The National Anthem in Spanish." The words are not a Spanish translation of "Oh say, can you see..." It's a different song, set to the same tune.

The British sing something that starts "God save our gracious Queen..." You would likely recognize the tune as the same one we Americans set to the words, "My country, 'tis of thee..."

We call that song America, not God Save the Queen.

Nuestra Himna is not the U.S. national anthem. It's another song, with a different name and different lyrics, set to the same tune.
 
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-060426nuestro,0,6454902.story?coll=chi-news-hed

I don't think this is an entirely correct libretto, but it's the only thing I could find, it was published in the Chicago Tribune. My attempts at translation are in italics when I am pretty such they're correct, and parenthasies when I wonder if the lyrics are transcribed properly, or if I just don't get the imagery.

Verse 1

Oh say can you see, a la luz de la aurora By the dawn's early light (edit: The figurative meaning of dawn as a begining is the same in Spanish) /Lo que tanto aclamamos la noche al caer? That which we praise so much proclaiming the night has fallen Sus estrellas, sus franjas flotaban ayer Its stars and stripes floating yeasterday (This might have been misheard, and it could be "alli", which would mean "floating there", which probably makes more sense.) /En el fiero combate en senal de victoria, In the wild battle, it is a sure sign of victory /Fulgor de lucha, al paso de la libertada, The shinging fight (cause) the path of liberty /Por la noche decian: "Se va defendiendo!" To the night it says, "It defends these!" (Tehchnically, it's more like "These it goes to defend")

Coro: Oh, decid! Chorus: Oh, Say! Despliega aun su hermosura estrellada, Unfolding its beutiful stars/Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada? Over the land of liberty, the sacred banner
Chant:

It's time to make a difference the kids, men and the women/Let's stand for our beliefs, let's stand for our vision/What about the children los ninos como P-Star What about the children like P-Star (Either P-Star is someone's name, or a misheard spanish word I can't figure out)

These kids have no parents, cause all of these mean laws.

See this can't happen, not only about the Latins.

Asians, blacks and whites and all they do is adding

more and more, let's not start a war

with all these hard workers,

they can't help where they were born.

Verse 2

Sus estrellas, sus franjas, la libertad, somos iguales The stars, the stripes, the freedom, all are equal

Somos hermanos, es nuestro himno. We are brothers [this] is our anthem.

Fulgor de lucha, al paso de la libertada,The brilliant fight (cause), the path of liberty /Por la noche decian: "Se va defendiendo!" To the night it says, "It defends these!" (same as above)

Coro: Oh, decid! Chorus: Oh, Say! Despliega aun su hermosura estrellada, Unfolding its beutiful stars/Sobre tierra de libres, la bandera sagrada? Over the land of liberty, the sacred banner
Click to expand...


Edit: Fixed my messed up italic tags.

Edit Again: Figured out the imagery in the second line about the night.
 
Last edited:
Our supervisor is apparently all right with folks joining the noon walkout in support of "Immigrants = Latinos = Illegals." (At least, in L.A., that's apparently the case, meaning no Koreans, Ethiopians, Armenians, Chinese, Japanese, Irish, Italian etc, etc, immigrate to the United States. Ever. Imagine a very large rolleyes smiley here.) I find this funny because when people were getting evicted because the district was failing to pay us, we discussed walking, but never did. Why punish the tutor-ees, right? So yeah, apparently a lot of folks'll be walking at noon on Monday. As one classmate put it, "All the cool kids'll be doing it."

Am I walking?

Er...

Maybe when it's less about, "those people," and, "racism," and more about actually fixing immigration. Besides, we're doing magnetism now in physics and there has been no indication from my professor that that's changing nor that the test will not be scheduled for the following class period either.

Sorry, but I was just accepted and I need to keep eating the elephant of getting kids involved in science and critical thinking.

Edit: As an amusing side note, while listening to the news while waiting for the KFI traffic report, they mentioned the Park Service, I believe, was getting all bilingual, even though most of their visitors were, "white," and they were servicing more blacks, Hispanics and Asians.

Because there are no white people who speak Spanish. Especially in South and Latin America. And all non-white people do.
 
Last edited:
BPSCG said:
Point of order. We need to nip this one in the bud right now.
...
It's a different song, set to the same tune.
...
Click to expand...
Even that's not true. If you've heard it, it does not sound like the original, no matter the words.

ETA: Go here for both words and audio
 
Last edited:
SezMe said:
Even that's not true. If you've heard it, it does not the tune sound like the original, no matter the words.
Click to expand...
Well, yeah, it is the tune, though sometimes not all that clearly recognizable. That's something a lot of performers do as "interpretation" (:mad:), so I can't get any more annoyed about that aspect of it than usual.

[derail 1]
RANT! It's "per-IH-lous fight,", not "per-OH-lous fight."

[/derail 1]

[derail 2]
If you've never heard the recording of Robert Merrill singing it at Yankee Stadium, you have no idea what a pale imiation those other "interpretations" are, with their silly, trivializing ornamentations and mispronunciations; Merrill gives it to you straight, clear, and spine-tingling.
[/derail 2]

The site SezMe links to has the translation. Where I've italicized is what they call in opera, a "singing translation," where a literal translation wouldn't match the words with the music, so they do an approximate translation that preserves the sense of the original language.

Where I've underlined is where the lyrics depart from The Star-Spangled Banner entirely.

Where I've bolded is where it is unclear where the translation applies, and I've put the original in parentheses afterwards.

By the light of the dawn, do you see arising,
what we proudly hailed at twilight's last fall?
Its stars, its stripes
yesterday streamed
above fierce combat
a gleaming emblem of victory
and the struggle toward liberty.
Throughout the night, they proclaimed: (Gave proof through the night)
"We will defend it!"
Tell me! Does its starry beauty still wave
above the land of the free,
the sacred flag?

 Its stars, its stripes,
liberty, we are the same.
We are brothers in our anthem.
In fierce combat, a gleaming emblem of victory
and the struggle toward liberty.
My people fight on.
The time has come to break the chains.
Throughout the night, they proclaimed: (Gave proof through the night)
"We will defend it!"
Tell me! Does its starry beauty still wave
above the land of the free,
the sacred flag?

Note "And the home of the brave" is replaced with "the sacred flag."

Since they add a second verse, it might be useful to append here, the entire Star-Spangled Banner, to make a few points:
Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
Click to expand...
Note the last line of the original. At the end of the first verse, it is part of a question. People sometimes ask why The Star Spangled Banner ends with a question. Well, it doesn't. The question is answered in the final three verses, which rarely get sung - yes, the star spangled banner does yet wave.

Note also that Key thought enough of one line to repeat it at the end of every verse: "O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave." The question mark at the end of the first verse becomes a period at the end of the second, then becomes an exclamation point at the end of the fourth. If there's a line in the anthem that should not be changed, that's it.

So, no, this is not a "Spanish version" of The Star Spangled Banner. It would have been, if they had stuck to doing a straight, "singing translation," but they didn't; they changed it, dramatically. You can call it a bastardized version, if you like, or if you are feeling more charitable, you can call it The Illegal Immigrants' Anthem. But it is not The Star Spangled Banner.
 
Last edited:
BPSCG, politics aside, translating songs almost never involves actually translating the actual words. Why? Two reasons:

#1) Words don't always translate exactly. There are nuances of meaning, and when you translate a song, you try to get the inner meaning more than a word-for-word translation.
#2) They don't have the same number of syllables from language to language.

For example, the "Home of the Brave" (four syllables) would translate to "casa del arrojado" (seven syllables) and I'm not 100% sure "the Brave" really translates all that well. Try singing "y la casa del arrojado" in the same notes as "and the home of the brave" and tell me it doesn't sound like you're jumbling everything together. The meter gets completely thrown off.

I have no idea if you speak any other languages, but if you look up song translations it's almost universal to "re-write" some of the lyrics to fit the meter and "deeper meaning" of the song. Word-for-word translations rarely work in general, much less when you have a rhythm and meter to adhere to. It's a bit of an art form in itself, really, and a lot of times it's not uncommon for a popular song to have several completely different translations in another language.

So I really think your criticism that this is "not a 'Spanish version' of The Star Spangled Banner" really doesn't hold water, just from a linguistic standpoint. It's as good a translation as there could be, really. I suppose you could argue that the words are divergent enough that it's not the same song, but then you could argue the same for any translation of any work.
 
BPSCG said:
... So, no, this is not a "Spanish version" of The Star Spangled Banner. It would have been, if they had stuck to doing a straight, "singing translation," but they didn't; they changed it, dramatically. You can call it a bastardized version, if you like, or if you are feeling more charitable, you can call it The Illegal Immigrants' Anthem. But it is not The Star Spangled Banner.
Click to expand...

And this is called wanting to assimilate?

Good post!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom