Thank God Afghanistan is Free!

[Mycroft]

Yeah, Steve...You're really not worth responding to. So have at it, bub.

Cleon, you respond this way to everyone who disagrees with you.


You're great when you're writing an editorial and don't have to answer the guy with the opposing point of view. You're fine when you're talking to a reporter who's only interested in getting a quote he can put in his story, but won't come back with anything critical of your point of view. You're good when your one of a crowd of people who all think exactly like you, blocking traffic with some protest.

But let you face someone who disagrees with you, who actually comes back at you with evidence, and you crumple. It's always the same pattern, you argue for about two posts, then you find some excuse to get offended or say they're "not worth it" and you run away.

 

[Beerina]

All a country needs to be a democracy is rule by the people, usually through a representative system and voting.

Freedom of worship is not an inherent part of the process.

Which is, of course, my point all along. Live by the populist sword, die by the populist sword.

In this case, literally.

Hmmmm....maybe there's something to this Freedom thing. Something that should be beyond the ability of democracy, which is to say masses swayed by power hungry politicians to outlaw.

 

[WildCat]

He's now seeking asylum. And peace-loving muslims are calling for the deaths of all Christians.

Earlier Monday, hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting "Death to Christians!" marched through the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif to protest the court's decision to toss out the case.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Mephisto]

He's now seeking asylum. And peace-loving muslims are calling for the deaths of all Christians.

Sounds reasonable to me.

As I said in the thread title; thank God Afghanistan is free (and Democratic)! They're doing SO much better without the Taliban, now you can buy heroin AND pornography!

 

[Bjorn]

On Monday the courts dropped the case, saying he was mentally ill.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,1741834,00.html

 

[SteveGrenard]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,1741834,00.html

But this is an out. If he weren't mentally ill, would they free him based on the right of freedom of religion? No.

He's been turned out into the streets now so unless he turns up soon in
some asylum country in one piece we still don't know what happened to him. In fact on the need for protecting his whereabouts we probably will
never know if he's been hacked up and buried in separate graves pushing up opium poppies throughout the rustic Afghani countryside.

 

[CFLarsen]

But this is an out. If he weren't mentally ill, would they free him based on the right of freedom of religion? No.

He's been turned out into the streets now so unless he turns up soon in
some asylum country in one piece we still don't know what happened to him. In fact on the need for protecting his whereabouts we probably will
never know if he's been hacked up and buried in separate graves pushing up opium poppies throughout the rustic Afghani countryside.

Your morbid fantasies are not fulfilled, Steve. He is in Italy.

Sorry. You don't score this time either.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Your morbid fantasies are not fulfilled ...

Sorry. You don't score this time either.

April 3, 2006 -- MAZAR-I-SHARIF, Afghanistan - Afghan clerics and their followers threatened violence yesterday over the release of a Christian convert, demanding that he be brought back from Italy and sentenced to death.
Last week's release of Abdur Rahman, 40, has come under heavy fire, but the few public protests there have been have been peaceful, so far.

Rahman was jailed last month under an Islamic law that stipulates death as punishment for apostasy. After a storm of Western criticism, he was transported to Italy.

But yesterday about 1,000 Muslims gathered in a mosque in the northeastern town of Kunduz and demanded that he be returned, tried and sentenced accordingly.

"This act of the government is illegal," said Sheik Mohammad Baqir, who organized the rally. "Either he should be tried or the government should go . . . And if the government doesn't listen, we will resort to violence."

http://www.nypost.com/php/pfriendly/print.php?url=http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/61902.htm

It’s hardly MY morbid fantasy. I guess you don't remember what these whacko's wanted to do to Salman Rushdie for his Satanic Verses...kill him anywhere in the world. I have no illusions about the religious fanaticism of fundamentalist islam. I am shocked you do not agree and prefer to reduce this conversation to a pub game.

 

[CFLarsen]

It’s hardly MY morbid fantasy. I guess you don't remember what these whacko's wanted to do to Salman Rushdie for his Satanic Verses...kill him anywhere in the world. I have no illusions about the religious fanaticism of fundamentalist islam. I am shocked you do not agree and prefer to reduce this conversation to a pub game.

I see you are back to your old, vicious self.

I am very aware of religious fanaticism of fundamentalist Islam. Apparently you don't remember the current riots against Denmark and Danes because of the Muhammed cartoons.

 

[SteveGrenard]

I see you are back to your old, vicious self.

I am very aware of religious fanaticism of fundamentalist Islam. Apparently you don't remember the current riots against Denmark and Danes because of the Muhammed cartoons.

You think I was being vicious? If so, I apolgize but I don't think I was being vicious. Viscous maybe, but not vicious. You accused me of having morbid fanatasies about islamic extremists killing Rahman even after he got out of jail. I deny that by reporting this these threats become my fantasy. They are not fantasy. Rahman can be killed anywhere in the world and he must stay in hiding like Salmon Rushdie. These threats are the product of dangerous, delusional extremist fanatics which in the case of Afghanistan and Iraq we (not you, I mean me and the rest of the US citizens/legal residents) send thousands of our kids (w/2K+ dead) and an estimated soon to be trillion dollars to democratize and "help" these people. They can't be helped and don't want help. The only fantasy in this is playing out between the White House and Downing Street. Yes, the Danish cartoon jihad is another example of the extremist policies of radical fundamentalist Islamofascists. It will be years before security is loosened around the newspapers and cartoonists involved.

 

[CFLarsen]

You think I was being vicious? If so, I apolgize but I don't think I was being vicious. Viscous maybe, but not vicious. You accused me of having morbid fanatasies about islamic extremists killing Rahman even after he got out of jail. I deny that by reporting this these threats become my fantasy. They are not fantasy. Rahman can be killed anywhere in the world and he must stay in hiding like Salmon Rushdie. These threats are the product of dangerous, delusional extremist fanatics which in the case of Afghanistan and Iraq we (not you, I mean me and the rest of the US citizens/legal residents) send thousands of our kids (w/2K+ dead) and an estimated soon to be trillion dollars to democratize and "help" these people. They can't be helped and don't want help. The only fantasy in this is playing out between the White House and Downing Street. Yes, the Danish cartoon jihad is another example of the extremist policies of radical fundamentalist Islamofascists. It will be years before security is loosened around the newspapers and cartoonists involved.

You haven't changed one bit, Steve.

I point out that, despite your claim that I don't remember Salman Rushdie, and that I don't agree with agree about the religious fanaticism of fundamentalist islam, I am very aware of fundamentalist Islam because of the recent Muhammed cartoons riots, threats and boycotts.

Your response? Talk around the issue.

Are you willing to retract your claim that I don't agree wrt the religious fanaticism of fundamentalist islam? Or are you willing to perpetuate this lie of yours in order to put me in a bad light?

 

[SteveGrenard]

You haven't changed one bit, Steve.

I point out that, despite your claim that I don't remember Salman Rushdie, and that I don't agree with agree about the religious fanaticism of fundamentalist islam, I am very aware of fundamentalist Islam because of the recent Muhammed cartoons riots, threats and boycotts.

Your response? Talk around the issue.

Are you willing to retract your claim that I don't agree wrt the religious fanaticism of fundamentalist islam? Or are you willing to perpetuate this lie of yours in order to put me in a bad light?

I didn't know if you are old enough to remember the Satanic Verses/Salmon Rushdie fatwah. To get this back on track we were talking about Mr Rahman, a former Muslim converted to Christianity (a decade earlier but kept it secret and was charged with a crime called apostasy which carries the death penalty. I said regardless of what the Afghani court or President does or whether he was deemed insane or not, this man was in the same boat as Salmon Rushdie.

You were quick to point out he was released and sent to Italy, implying he would be safe from the radical/extremist islamofascist whackos who want him killed for his heresy. You accused me of having a morbid fantasy on the subject. This is libelous and slanderous. I expressed dismay, surprise and shock that you would think such a thing if you could recall Salmon Rushdie's situation. He was a marked man no matter where he was hiding out and for many years and still lives underground. But the larger issue (which often takes a backseat to trivial ones) is why are we spending American blood and money on these people? You are a Dane. It is not your money or your people who are dying for this. It's almost none of your business. Today is April 15th Claus and you know what that means. I grant you that the Danish press took a courageous stand in publishing the mohammad cartoons and stood behind them, thus incurring the wrath of these same extremist whackos who are very dangerous people. However, the Danish press and their cartoonists have nowhere near paid the price Americans have in blood and money for these people who when they are not killing us are content to kill each other in tribal warfare (e.g. civil war). I never said you agreed with the extremist whackos, so please show me where I did so. I said I was surprised you didn't believe just by shunting Rahman off to Italy that he was safe. The bigger issue also is not just about him, but about the fact that his case even ever happened. Ditto for the Danish cartoons. What civilized human beings would ever threaten people with death for changing their religion or publishing a cartoon? These people are beyond redemption and it seemed like you thought that releasing Rahman and sending him into exile solved the problem. Here's a tip for you: it didn't.

I honestly don't feel I said anything to you to apolgize for but if you retract your statement that my opinion of Rahman's situation was a morbid fantasy, I will apologize to you. I have worked in the region, I have discussed this face to face with many Moslem friends and colleagues, I watched (& cried) when the Saudi government chopped off the head of a young princess for marrying a man without her father's approval. You know what they do with the head don't you? Thus I have no fantasies about these people. We need to dissolve our co-dependence with them (e.g. oil). move on and leave them to their own devices.

 

[CFLarsen]

I didn't know if you are old enough to remember the Satanic Verses/Salmon Rushdie fatwah.

Yes, you did, Steve. You know how old I am, we've been through this before. Don't bat innocent Bambi eyes at me.

To get this back on track we were talking about Mr Rahman, a former Muslim converted to Christianity (a decade earlier but kept it secret and was charged with a crime called apostasy which carries the death penalty. I said regardless of what the Afghani court or President does or whether he was deemed insane or not, this man was in the same boat as Salmon Rushdie.

You were quick to point out he was released and sent to Italy, implying he would be safe from the radical/extremist islamofascist whackos who want him killed for his heresy.

No, I did not imply that. I pointed out that he was in Italy, and hence not subject to your morbid fantasy about him being "been hacked up and buried in separate graves pushing up opium poppies throughout the rustic Afghani countryside".

You accused me of having a morbid fantasy on the subject. This is libelous and slanderous.

I await yet another lawsuit from you, then. You've threatened me with lawsuits before, Steve, but nothing has materialized. Still, you know where to contact me.

I expressed dismay, surprise and shock that you would think such a thing if you could recall Salmon Rushdie's situation. He was a marked man no matter where he was hiding out and for many years and still lives underground. But the larger issue (which often takes a backseat to trivial ones) is why are we spending American blood and money on these people? You are a Dane. It is not your money or your people who are dying for this. It's almost none of your business.

Steve, you can drop those nasty allegations. You know that Denmark is part of the Coalition. You know damned well that it is also my money and my people who are dying for this.

Today is April 15th Claus and you know what that means.

It means a lot of things. Just because it is Tax day for you doesn't mean I should burn candles in the nearest church because of that.

I grant you that the Danish press took a courageous stand in publishing the mohammad cartoons and stood behind them, thus incurring the wrath of these same extremist whackos who are very dangerous people. However, the Danish press and their cartoonists have nowhere near paid the price Americans have in blood and money for these people who when they are not killing us are content to kill each other in tribal warfare (e.g. civil war).

It is very telling that you measure this in blood, death and destruction.

I never said you agreed with the extremist whackos, so please show me where I did so.

Here:

It’s hardly MY morbid fantasy. I guess you don't remember what these whacko's wanted to do to Salman Rushdie for his Satanic Verses...kill him anywhere in the world. I have no illusions about the religious fanaticism of fundamentalist islam. I am shocked you do not agree and prefer to reduce this conversation to a pub game.

Go ahead. Talk your way out of that one.

I said I was surprised you didn't believe just by shunting Rahman off to Italy that he was safe.

You simply can't stop misrepresenting the facts, can you?

I was the one pointing out that he was in Italy, and therefore could not be "hacked up" and "buried in separate graves". In Afghanistan, Steve.

The bigger issue also is not just about him, but about the fact that his case even ever happened. Ditto for the Danish cartoons. What civilized human beings would ever threaten people with death for changing their religion or publishing a cartoon? These people are beyond redemption and it seemed like you thought that releasing Rahman and sending him into exile solved the problem. Here's a tip for you: it didn't.

I honestly don't feel I said anything to you to apolgize for but if you retract your statement that my opinion of Rahman's situation was a morbid fantasy, I will apologize to you.

So, you admit that you did falsely claim that I don't agree wrt the religious fanaticism of fundamentalist islam. Only I have to apologize for pointing out your morbid fantasies first.

You haven't changed one little bit.

I have worked in the region,

When? Where? As what? References, please.

I have discussed this face to face with many Moslem friends and colleagues, I watched (& cried) when the Saudi government chopped off the head of a young princess for marrying a man without her father's approval. You know what they do with the head don't you? Thus I have no fantasies about these people.

Again, your morbidity shines through. You really revel in the thought of gore, don't you?

We need to dissolve our co-dependence with them (e.g. oil). move on and leave them to their own devices.

And how do you suggest the US does that? According to the CIA World Fact Book, the US imports 13 million barrels a day.

February 2006 Import Highlights: Released on April 14, 2006
Preliminary monthly data on the origins of crude oil imports in February 2006 has been released and it shows that two countries have exported more than 1.7 million barrels per day to the United States. Including those countries, a total of five countries exported over 1.1 million barrels per day of crude oil to the United States (see table below). The top sources of US crude oil imports for February were Mexico (1.774 million barrels per day), Canada (1.700 million barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (1.418 million barrels per day), Nigeria (1.342 million barrels per day), and Venezuela (1.175 million barrels per day). The rest of the top ten sources, in order, were Angola (0.464 million barrels per day), Iraq (0.444 million barrels per day), Ecuador (0.222 million barrels per day), Brazil (0.164 million barrels per day), and Algeria (0.163 million barrels per day). Total crude oil imports averaged 9.860 million barrels per day in February, which is an increase of 0.147 million barrels per day from January 2006. The top five exporting countries accounted for 75 percent of United States crude oil imports in February and the top ten sources accounted for approximately 90 percent of all U.S. crude oil imports.
Source

(Emphasis mine).

Where do you suggest the US go for those 1.418 million barrels a day?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Personally I have nothing against Arabs. They were the greatest culture on the face of the earth. Their Egyptian forebears built the pyramids...

The ancient Egyptians were not forbears of the Arabs. The Arabs invaded Egypt in 1050 AD.

... they had a great literature and a magnificent library and made many advances in astronomy, medicine, engineering, mathematics. But somewhere along the way they became influenced by a guy named mohammad around the year 700 AD and all that changed when islam came into existence. That's where they went wrong, really wrong.

You have this the wrong way round. Before Mohammad, the Arabs had camels, blood feuds, and some rather nice poetry. The poetry apart, the cultural achievements you list all fell in the Islamic period.

 

[SteveGrenard]

The ancient Egyptians were not forbears of the Arabs. The Arabs invaded Egypt in 1050 AD.

You have this the wrong way round. Before Mohammad, the Arabs had camels, blood feuds, and some rather nice poetry. The poetry apart, the cultural achievements you list all fell in the Islamic period.

EFRAIM KARSH’s editorial pulled from his book in the Wall Street Journal describes the situation as succinctly as any and puts the rise and fall and rise and fall of Islam into historical perspective. You cannot lose sight of the fact that there has been an historical series of ups and downs and we're on a down as long as memory serves us
up to today.


http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110008181

From Muhammad to the Ottomans, the story of Islam has been the story of the rise and fall of an often astonishing imperial aggressiveness and, no less important, of never quiescent imperial dreams. Even as these dreams have repeatedly frustrated any possibility for the peaceful social and political development of the Arab-Muslim world, they have given rise to no less repeated fantasies of revenge and restoration and to murderous efforts to transform fantasy into fact. If, today, America is reviled in the Muslim world, it is not because of its specific policies but because, as the preeminent world power, it blocks the final realization of this same age-old dream of regaining, in Zawahiri's words, the "lost glory" of the caliphate.

If there is any doubt, all you have to do is look at the statements made by
posters to sites such as Islamonline.net for confirmation:

Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. My question goes as follows: From all what is happening to Muslims since World War I till now, is there any hope for a Muslim revival and stronghold? Of course, Allah and His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) have told us that a day of reckoning would come but the future seems so dark and bleak for Muslims. I am not saying this because of Western and Jewish crimes against Muslims.

I am saying this because of the so-called moderate Muslims who side with the West against other Muslims. The attitudes of such turncoats sadden my soul. So my question is: Why do these Muslims side with the West even after history clearly shows that they are our bitter enemies and is there any hope for the Muslims worldwide? Jazakum Allah khayran.

from a group of muftis

 

[SteveGrenard]

Larsen: Where do you suggest the US go for those 1.418 million barrels a day?

A: Hydroelectric power, wind & solar energy, geothermal energy (http://geothermal.marin.org/geomap_1.html) hybrid and fully electric cars, ethanol (=corn) as fuel, steam power, coal, natural gas, domestic oil, regulated nuclear energy, burning waste ....our Mayor, the City of NY pays a million taxpayer's dollars a day to truck its garbage to landfills out of state while some other cities have found clean ways to burn their garbage and generate electricity and turn that garbage into money instead of paying to have it buried somewhere. The city is doing this (for Staten Island and some Manhattan garbage) on a limited basis. Recycling technologies are also an indirect technique to lower reliance on foreign oil.

http://www.homestead.com/concernedcitizens/files/NYC/LI/LongHaulNYTimes12-04-05.html

http://www.wirednewyork.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4303


Of course we have big oil in power in Washington so unless and until these interests are displaced, real movement on alternatives will not happen ... well, maybe it will when the greedy oil companies price themselves off the map. It will be interesting to see how Mr. Bush reacts to calls for placing price controls on gasoline and fuel oil. In spite of the high price of a barrel of oil, refiners themselves are not suffering but to the contrary are making record profits.

 

[CFLarsen]

A: Hydroelectric power, wind & solar energy, geothermal energy (http://geothermal.marin.org/geomap_1.html) hybrid and fully electric cars, ethanol (=corn) as fuel, steam power, coal, natural gas, domestic oil, regulated nuclear energy, burning waste

This requires a major change in how the US Energy sector works. Who will pay for all that? How long will it take? Please provide your calculations.

When did you work in that region? Where? As what? References, please.

 

[CFLarsen]

Personally I have nothing against Arabs. They were the greatest culture on the face of the earth. Their Egyptian forebears built the pyramids

Wrong.

A unified kingdom arose circa 3200 B.C., and a series of dynasties ruled in Egypt for the next three millennia. The last native dynasty fell to the Persians in 341 B.C., who in turn were replaced by the Greeks, Romans, and Byzantines. It was the Arabs who introduced Islam and the Arabic language in the 7th century and who ruled for the next six centuries. A local military caste, the Mamluks took control about 1250 and continued to govern after the conquest of Egypt by the Ottoman Turks in 1517.

CIA World Fact Book

 

[SteveGrenard]

This requires a major change in how the US Energy sector works. Who will pay for all that? How long will it take? Please provide your calculations.

When did you work in that region? Where? As what? References, please.

It will require big oil to stop exerting its anti-alternative energy
lobbying pressures. They have a lot of money so they are very
protectionist. And yes, it will not happen overnight but can be done
if planned properly.

From 1977 to 1982 in and out of Kuwait for American Medical International. Also worked on planning the respiratory therapy and
critical care areas of hospitals in Saudi Arabia and the Al Salaam
Hospital in Egypt for Dr. M. Yacoub. In Kuwait worked with the Deputy
Minister of Health, Dr. al-Naqueeb. I worked out of the company in London (American Medical Europe Ltd, 46 Wimpole Street, London W1).
AME owned and operated the Harley Street Clinic and the
Princess Grace Hospital in London as well. We airlifted patients from the mid-East to London for open heart surgery, mostly mitral valve procedures. In France I was liasion with Prof Christian Debras, Assistance Publique de Paris and Hopital Henri Mondor and the Faculte of Medicine at Creteil on related projects also on behalf of and funded by AME.

 

[CFLarsen]

It will require big oil to stop exerting its anti-alternative energy
lobbying pressures. They have a lot of money so they are very
protectionist. And yes, it will not happen overnight but can be done
if planned properly.

You did not answer the questions:

Who will pay for all that?

How long will it take?

Please provide your calculations.

From 1977 to 1982 in and out of Kuwait for American Medical International. Also worked on planning the respiratory therapy and
critical care areas of hospitals in Saudi Arabia and the Al Salaam Hospital in Egypt for Dr. M. Yacoub. In Kuwait worked with the Deputy Minister of Health, Dr. al-Naqueeb. I worked out of the company in London (American Medical Europe Ltd, 46 Wimpole Street, London W1).

AME owned and operated the Harley Street Clinic and the Princess Grace Hospital in London as well. We airlifted patients from the mid-East to London for open heart surgery, mostly mitral valve procedures. In France I was liasion with Prof Christian Debras, Assistance Publique de Paris and Hopital Henri Mondor and the Faculte of Medicine at Creteil on related projects also on behalf of and funded by AME.

That's odd, Steve. None of this show up in your resume. Why not?

I see you have no experience from Afghanistan.