Thank God Afghanistan is Free!

Just when it seemed there might be a way out via the mental illness defense, the clerics jump in w/ their usual knee-jerk intolerance and hatred:
Senior clerics in the Afghan capital have voiced strong support for the prosecution and have warned they would incite people to execute Rahman if he is freed and refuses to revert to Islam.
That message was reiterated at Friday prayers.
Rahman had "committed the greatest sin" by converting to Christianity and deserved to be killed, cleric Abdul Raoulf said in his sermon at Herati Mosque.
"God's way is the right way, and this man whose name is Abdul Rahman is an apostate," he told about 150 worshippers
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Welcome to the 7th century.
 
Cleon said:
*sigh* I know you like to keep spewing this stuff, Steve-O, but do you have any evidence for this beyond your say-so?
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While Mideast governments outside Israel often disparage Jews, Saudi Arabia's anti-Semitic rage is unsurpassed. Iran, for instance, has a Jewish community of 11,500, according to the 2001 American Jewish Year Book. Though sometimes hassled by Tehran, Iran's Jews may practice Judaism. Even Iraq has some 100 or so elderly Jews who pray at Baghdad's synagogue. While these two members of the Axis of Evil permit Jewish worship, America's "moderate ally" forbids non-Islamic devotion and is basically Jew-free. As a Saudi embassy spokesman told me: "100 percent of Saudi Arabia's citizens are Muslim."
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excerpted from an article in the National review, rest at:

http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock091702.asp


You can research the subject online quite easily. I am glad to help you learn new things, however. In Saudi Arabia you would not be able to find this article on-line because like China they filter out material to which the government objects. My exposure to this was personal. I needed a letter from my priest to get a visa to Saudia Arabia when my employer needed to send me there. I was told if you were a Jew and were using phoney religious credentials to get a visa and got caught you can be arrested, jailed and deportred at best, at worst, who knows? They chop off young girl's heads for marrying outside the family. I asked the guy in charge of getting visas what to do if you were an atheist and that wasn't an option. Wink wink, get a letter from a priest. Fortunately I ended up going to Kuwait instead so I didn't
have to risk falsifying documents for Saudi Arabia. Kuwait doesn't have this requirement for Americans visiting on short term business although they allow no Jews as citizens or residents either.
 
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SteveGrenard said:
excerpted from an article in the National review, rest at:
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So the answer is "no."

And actually, Stevie, I have researched this, which is why I asked. In fact, your National Review article (an editorial, hardly an authoritative source) gets it wrong--non-Muslim worship is tolerated as long as it's not public.

I have yet found zero evidence to back up your claim that "it is illegal to be a Jew in Saudi Arabia." Your own excerpt doesn't back that up.

I have personal reasons for being interested in this, myself, so I really would like to know, definitively, if this is so.

So far, I've seen the assertion made, but no evidence that it is so. Which is just as well--somehow I doubt the US Army would filter out Jews from serving at the Riyadh base.
 
Right!! When I say "illegal" I do not mean in terms of civil law since there is none in Saudi Arabia. The courts are guided by the Koran and by edicts handed down by the religious mullahs. Literal interpretation of Koranic scripture, such as there shall be no god but allah with mohammed as his prophet, etc etc, is the supreme law in Saudi Arabia. Since neither jews, christians or atheists or anyone other than moslems would subscribe to this, they would be in violation of the law, hence illegal in that sense. In any case Cleon I would not rely on your interpretation of the situation in Saudi Arabia to legally get out of a situation involving religion, other than unless you are a moslem.

You could not play such games with the judges in these religious courts.

It will be their way and then off with your head, being stoned or whipped, or cut off a right hand, and all the other lovely punishments they
have there.

And to think thirty-five years ago I traveled half way around the world to be part of an effort to bring them modern healthcare and hospitals when what they really needed was mental institutions.

US Military personnel do not need passports or visas to enter Saudi Arabia so they skirt the immigration inspections. The US Army would
not publicly filter out Jews from their detachments there but I fear that
US mil Jews co-opted for that assignment can and do refuse the assignment and in one of those rare situations they often readily get this request granted. Needless to say this is something nobody wants to talk about. Big American companies, to skirt anti-discrimination laws, actually
have off shore offices set up to hire personnel using religious discrimination as one basis for Saudi hiring decisions. The people I was working for had an office in London, one purpose of which, was to recruit workers for Saudi positions.
Since I was recruited here, I was told that they do not disriminate but I needed to prove my religion to the Saudi visa office in New York and they didn't want to know what it was. Of course if I ended up not getting the visa, I could hardly have gotten the job.
 
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SteveGrenard said:
Right!! When I say "illegal" I do not mean in terms of civil law since there is none in Saudi Arabia.
Click to expand...

...So you're talking out of your @$$. OK.

US Military personnel do not need passports or visas to enter Saudi Arabia so they skirt the immigration inspections.
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Irrelevant. The presence of Jewish US military officers (or enlisted) makes your claim incorrect.

The US Army would
not publicly filter out Jews from their detachments there but I fear that
US mil Jews co-opted for that assignment can and do refuse the assignment and in one of those rare situations they often readily get this request granted.
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Do you have any evidence to this effect, or just your "fear?"

Needless to say this is something nobody wants to talk about.
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On the contrary, I do, for a very simple reason--I have, in the past, been contacted by Saudi Aramco for a stint in Saudi Arabia as a developer. The pay is excellent; I'm not currently looking to leave my job, but I'd like to know if it's an option if my current job disappears. Since I'm Jewish, the question of whether it's "illegal to be a Jew in Saudi Arabia" has some significance.

So, while throwing BS around involving Arab and Muslim countries seems to be commonplace around here, I would like some substantiation--or refutation--of this claim.

Your lack of knowledge of the Middle East became apparent when you referred to Afghanistan as "the rest of Arabia." Considering the babble you've been posting, I wonder if you have anything substantial to contribute at all on the subject.
 
I can tell you with absolute certainty that a company called HCA (Hospital Corporation of America) when recruiting personnel for the
hospitals it managed in Saudi Arabia advised hirees in New York that
a condition of employment is that the candidate has to show up for
work on site and to do so needed a work visa from Saudi Arabia.
They also recruited personnel both through an office in Canada and
in London to skirt U.S. law prohibiting discrimination. So watch out for these ruses.

Getting that visa necessitated a notarized letter from a clergyman attesting to my religion. If you are an atheist, like I am, and haven't
at that point been inside a house of worship in 20 or more years, this
would not be an easy task. As it turned out, I ended up only having to
visit Kuwait as a consultant on 5 new hospitals they were building,
and was able to complete most of my assignment in London and in
Paris, working with planners and architects. A ministerial visa (Health
Ministry) from Kuwait did not require me to produce evidence of my
religion or lack thereof but then I was only present in country on
short trips of a week or two several times a year.

Cleon, given the situation you describe and you could take ARAMCO
job offer up to the front door of the Saudi consultate in New York or their embassy in DC to obtain a visa and find out for yourself if what I am saying is correct or not. If I were in your shoes I wouldn't risk going there
if they let you which they wouldn't anyway if you were truthful on your visa app about your religion. No money is worth it to lie about this and I say this to you with concern and sincerity.

Personally I have nothing against Arabs. They were the greatest culture on the face of the earth. Their Egyptian forebears built the pyramids, they had a great literature and a magnificent library and made many advances in astronomy, medicine, engineering, mathematics. But somewhere along the way they became influenced by a guy named mohammad around the year 700 AD and all that changed when islam came into existence. That's where they went wrong, really wrong.
 
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SteveGrenard said:
I can tell you with absolute certainty...
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I'm not asking you for your "absolute certainty," I'm not asking for your life history, and I'm certainly not asking for your advice.

I'm asking you for evidence of your claim that "it is illegal to be a Jew in Saudi Arabia." Do you or do you not have such evidence?
 
Cleon said:
I'm not asking you for your "absolute certainty," I'm not asking for your life history, and I'm certainly not asking for your advice.

I'm asking you for evidence of your claim that "it is illegal to be a Jew in Saudi Arabia." Do you or do you not have such evidence?
Click to expand...

I gave you the evidence as have others elsewhere. Its in the koran, its in their visa policies and its in their application of koranic law. Its in the official absence of Jews in Saudi Arabia and the absence of not only jewish houses of worship but houses of worship of any other religion save for islam. You should figure out something must be correct about that and stop defending the racist, discriminatory practices of islam in Saudi Arabia. Apparently the only thing left for you to be convinced is to take the ARAMCO job and apply for a Saudi visa and see what happens. Good luck. I tried to give you the benefit of what I learned about working in the region but that testimony indeed was not evidence. You will be fascinated by the definition of "evidence" in a religious court in Saudi Arabia. I hope you don't get that far to find out.

from Saudi Customs Regulations documents:
CUSTOMS REGULATIONS


A number of items are not allowed to be brought into the Kingdom due to religious reasons and local regulations. These include alcoholic beverages, pork and pork products, prohibited drugs and narcotics, firearms, explosives, edged weapons and pornographic materials.
Items and articles belonging to religions other than Islam are also prohibited. These may include Bibles, crucifixes, statues, carvings, items with religious symbols such as the Star of David, and others. Makkah and Medina hold special religious significance and only persons of the Islamic faith are allowed entry.

NOTES addendum to general visa and visitor visa requirements:

  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Visitors should not overstay the time granted on the visa. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Visitors to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia must abide by the country's Islamic laws and regulations and respect its society's values and traditions. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's laws against drug trafficking are strictly enforced. Violators are subject to severe punishment, which may include the death penalty. [/FONT]
  • [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sectarian, political or religious gatherings are forbidden.[/FONT]
 
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SteveGrenard said:
I gave you the evidence
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No, you most certainly have not. Now you're simply compounding unfounded claims with lies.

Its in the koran,
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I've read the Quran, actually. Feel free to point out the Sura that says "it is illegal to be a Jew in Saudi Arabia." I seem to have missed that part.

its in their visa policies
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So far you're failed to point out a single such policy beyond your say-so. So I did your homework for you.

Here is a list of their visa regulations for different visa types (employment, tourism, hajj, etc). At no point does it say "it is illegal to be a Jew in Saudi Arabia." In fact, I haven't found a single thing that backs up that claim--not even your own statements.

Its in the official absence of Jews in Saudi Arabia and the absence of not only jewish houses of worship but houses of worship of any other religion save for islam.
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There's an absence of churches--yet there are Christians in Saudi Arabia. So that falls flat on its face.

You should figure out something must be correct about that and stop defending the racist, discriminatory practices of islam in Saudi Arabia.
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Now that's a mega-lie. At no point have I defended the practices or laws of the Saudi regime. There's no twisting that to be a "mistake;" that's a deliberate lie on your part.

I tried to give you the benefit of what I learned about working in the region but that testimony indeed was not evidence.
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Given that you have demonstrated a clear lack of knowledge about the region, and have said several things that are simply untrue, I don't take your claim of experience at face value. In fact, at this point I have no reason to believe a single thing you say; you have serious issues with honesty, and you seem to think Afghanistan is a region of "Arabia."
 
SteveG: Spot on! Cleon: Zip!
Actually, you can be anything you want, as long as 1.You don't tell; 2. you carry no articles which may be prohibited; 3. You don't practice your counter religion publicly;4. you don't get caught.
 
trvlr2 said:
SteveG: Spot on! Cleon: Zip!
Actually, you can be anything you want, as long as 1.You don't tell; 2. you carry no articles which may be prohibited; 3. You don't practice your counter religion publicly;4. you don't get caught.
Click to expand...

So it's not illegal to be a Jew in Saudi Arabia, and Steve was wrong. Thanks for backing me up.
 
I wrote:

"Ah so, it's illegal to practice Christianity in Afghanistan? Is the same true of the rest of Arabia? Iraq? Saudi? Dubai? Kuwait?
It is...."

Er, this does not say Afghanistan is part of Arabia. It is a question whether or not in the rest of Arabia whether it is legal or not to be Jewish in those countries. Actually practices vary widely by country.

I agree Afghanistan is not part of Arabia but it is part of the Islamic middle-east. Sorry if you were confused but this statement does not include Afghanistan with Arabia directly and if so, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

In the meantime, since you are a Jew and may be going to work in Saudi Arabia, I wish you the best of luck since thrughout the region no westerner is really safe anymore anyhow.

When you go for your visa and have to supply some of the acceptability letters and documents required for a work visa you will find out more about the religious prohibition. They do not publish it directly. Jews by the way have "visited" Saudi Arabia so I am only talking about residence/working visas and not visitor's visas. As a visitor you must leave on or before scheduled date and must have a ticket out to be allowed in.

Arabia properly consists of a Southwest Asian Peninsula consisting of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates.
 
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SteveGrenard said:
I wrote:

"Ah so, it's illegal to practice Christianity in Afghanistan? Is the same true of the rest of Arabia? Iraq? Saudi? Dubai? Kuwait?
It is...."

Er, this does not say Afghanistan is part of Arabia. It is a question whether or not in the rest of Arabia whether it is legal or not to be Jewish in those countries. Actually practices vary widely by country.
Click to expand...

Wow. You really believe that.

I agree Afghanistan is not part of Arabia but it is part of the Islamic middle-east. Sorry if you were confused but this statement does not include Afghanistan with Arabia directly and if so, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

In the meantime, since you are a Jew and may be going to work in Saudi Arabia, I wish you the best of luck since thrughout the region no westerner is really safe anymore anyhow.

When you go for your visa and have to supply some of the acceptability letters and documents required for a work visa you will find out more about the religious prohibition. They do not publish it directly. Jews by the way have "visited" Saudi Arabia so I am only talking about residence/working visas and not visitor's visas. As a visitor you must leave on or before scheduled date and must have a ticket out to be allowed in.

Arabia properly consists of a Southwest Asian Peninsula consisting of Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Oman, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates.
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Your ability to finally look up some of the words you were babbling is admirable. The thing is, you're supposed to do that *before* you spout off.

You clearly don't know anything about the subject, and this pathetic attempt to lie, distort, and spin your way into a "superior" position of some sort only underscores the fact.
 
This is from the Saudi visa requirements and have a nice day deluding yourself into believing whatever "nice things" you want to about this openly racist and discriminatory country:

You can find some clues to the prohibition here:

Restricted entry: (a) Holders of an Israeli passport or passports with Israeli stamps in them. (b) Passengers not complying with Saudi conventions of dress and behaviour, including those who appear to be in a state of intoxication, will be refused entry (see Social Conventions section). (c) There are special regulations concerning pilgrims entering Saudi Arabia. Contact the Consulate (or Consular section at Embassy) for further information.
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“Contact for Further information” is a signal.

Let’s look at the rest of the requirements”

Application requirements: Family visas: (a) One application form. (b) One passport-size photo. (c) Passport valid for at least 6 months. (d) Prepaid, self-addressed, recorded delivery envelope, if applying by post. (e) Fee (payable in cash, by postal order or by banker’s draft only). (f) Invitation from host or sponsor, with authorisation from the Saudi Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Residency visas: (a)-(e) and, (f) Medical report, authenticated by the UK Foreign Office (for persons over 15 years of age). (g) Authorisation from the Saudi Ministry of Foreign Affairs, obtained by their sponsor in Saudi. Business visas: (a)-(e) and, (f) Letter of invitation from Saudi host company endorsed by Saudi Chamber of Commerce. (g) Letter from company or organisation in own country. Work visas: (a)-(e) and (f) letter of introduction from Saudi sponsor and copy of the employment contract. (g) Medical report, authenticated by the UK Foreign Office. (h) Copies of academic qualifications and work experience in the field of job applied for. (i) Letter of No Objection if previously employed in Saudi Arabia. (j) An amount equivalent to SR50 deposited at the Consulate’s cashier desk. (k) Authorisation from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Saudi Arabia. Pilgrim visas: (a)-(d) and (e) airline ticket with confirmed booking (both ways), and (f) meningitis immunisation certificate is required.
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Key signals: see (f) ..”authorisation from Saudi Ministry of Foreign Affairs.” Another one is a letter from Saudi Sponsor. The Letter of No Objection is a negative if you were deported previously which can include being deported for Violating religous rules which I previously described.


Letter from Clergy is covered in the following statement on the visa requirements page as well:

Embassy contact information:
Please contact the nearest Saudi Arabia embassy for information on what documentation you may require to enter Saudi Arabia.
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http://www.learn4good.com/travel/saudi_arabia_visa.htm
 
Fine. If you want to live and work there, go ahead. For the benefit of others who may be interested in doing so, I hope they thoroughly read the State Dept Human Right’s report at just to make sure they know in advance what they are getting into. There are many problems in Saudi Arabia and I have extracted a few that interface with this discussion:

The Government enforced most social and Islamic religious norms, the Government's interpretations of which are matters of law (see Section 5). Women may not marry noncitizens without government permission; men must obtain government permission to marry noncitizen women outside the six states of the Gulf Cooperation Council. In accordance with Shari'a, women are prohibited from marrying non-Muslims; men may marry Christians and Jews, as well as Muslims. Tradition and culture, not law, restrict marriages between Sunni and Shi'a citizens, and the Government does not refuse marriage licenses between Sunni and Shi'a couples.
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Note: Moslem men may import Jewish/Christian women and marry them so they can become part of their harems. However, Jewish men may not marry Moslem women. This is a nod to trafficking but is not characterized as such.
The Government at times imposed restrictions on the right of certain Government employees to marry foreigners. The Government subjects top civil servants and security officials to extensive questioning when applying to marry foreigners. The Government tends to be more lenient in approving marriages to foreigners by the elderly and disabled. The marital restrictions also applied to citizens studying overseas on government scholarships. Violators risked disciplinary action; however, this policy was rarely violated and there were no reports of sanctions being imposed.

Mutawwa'in practices and incidents of abuse varied widely in different regions of the country, but they were most numerous in the central Nejd region. In certain areas, both the Mutawwa'in and religious vigilantes acting on their own harassed, abused, arrested, and detained citizens and foreigners (see Section 1.d.).
Mutawwa'in enforcement of strict standards of social behavior included closing commercial establishments during the five daily prayer observances, insisting upon compliance with strict norms of public dress, and dispersing gatherings of women in public places designated for men, as well as preventing men from entering public places designated for families. Mutawwa'in frequently reproached citizen and foreign women for failure to observe strict dress codes and arrested men and women found together who were not married or closely related.
The Government does not provide legal protection for freedom of religion and such protection did not exist in practice. Freedom of religion did not exist. Islam is the official religion, and the law provides that all citizens must be Muslims.
The Government prohibited the public practice of non-Muslim religions. In general, non-Muslims are able to worship privately, but must exercise great discretion to avoid attracting attention. Conversion by a Muslim to another religion was considered apostasy. Apostasy is a crime under Shari'a and, according to the Government's interpretation, is punishable by death. On October 31, a citizen was arrested in Hofuf and jailed. International NGO and local media reports claimed that he had converted to Christianity. No further information on him or his case was available at year's end.
There were reports that Christians were detained for practicing their religion. During the year, there were scattered raids, arrests, and detentions of Christians throughout the country, although fewer than in the past. In February, the Government deported a resident Christian after he provided an Arabic Bible to a citizen. In November, the Government deported an Indian Christian arrested in April. There were credible reports that Mutawwa'in arrested him for religious reasons after a dispute with his employer. According to other reports, the Mutawwa'in beat him on the day of the arrest and confiscated his personal property, including two Bibles, compact disks, a personal computer, and religious videos.

Under the Hanbali interpretation of Shari'a law, judges may discount the testimony of persons who are not practicing Muslims or who do not adhere to the correct doctrine.

Freedom of religion does not exist. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens must be Muslims. The Government prohibits non-Islamic public worship but permits nondefined private worship. Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is considered apostasy. Public apostasy is a crime under Shari'a and punishable by death. There were no executions for apostasy during the year, and no reports of any such executions for the past several years.
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You want to live and work here? Have a nice day.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/8296.htm
 
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"The Government prohibits public non-Muslim religious activities. Non-Muslim worshippers risk arrest, imprisonment, lashing, deportation, and sometimes torture for engaging in religious activity that attracts official attention. The Government continues to state publicly that its policy is to allow non-Muslim foreigners to worship privately. However, the Government does not provide explicit guidelines--such as the number of persons permitted to attend private services and acceptable locations--for determining what constitutes private worship, thereby leaving the distinction between public and private worship unclear. This lack of clarity and instances of inconsistent enforcement led many non-Muslims to worship in fear of harassment and in such a way as to avoid discovery by police or Mutawwa'in. The Government often deported those detained for visible non-Muslim worship, sometimes after lengthy periods of arrest during investigation. In some cases, those convicted were also sentenced to receive lashes prior to deportation. In contrast to previous years, there was a decrease in both long-term detentions and deportations of non-Muslims for religious reasons; however, there was a marked increase in harassment by Mutawwa'in and in overall arrests and short-term detentions of non-Muslims. Some former detainees reported occasional government harassment and surveillance following their release.

"The Government requires noncitizens to carry iqamas, or legal resident identity cards, which contain a religious designation for "Muslim" or "non-Muslim." There have been reports that individual Mutawwa'in have pressured sponsors not to renew iqamas, which had been issued for employment, of individuals for religious reasons."

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51609.htm
 
Feb 27, 2004
WASHINGTON (AP) Rep. Anthony Weiner, a frequent critic of United States policy toward Saudi Arabia, said Thursday that the Middle East country’s new visa policy outlined on a tourist Web site should be quickly condemned by American officials.
The Web site, promoting a new Saudi program to offer tourist visas to encourage more foreign visitors, lists four groups not entitled to tourist visas, including “Jewish People.”
The Saudi government has traditionally only issued travel visas for employment, Hajj pilgrimages, and other visits with official sanction.
In addition to Jews, the Web site by the Supreme Commission for Tourism also says it will refuse visas to anyone with an Israeli passport or a passport that has an Israeli stamp.
“It is very difficult to see the Saudis as anything other than a backward country with backward ideals and this reaffirms that,” said Weiner. “I think the administration should take a hard look at this Web site and decide whether a country that has these policies should be considered our ally.”

The Saudi Arabian web site linked looks like someone over there got nervous about the publicity and yanked it. The Guardian has some quotes from the disappeared copy:
The supreme commission for tourism’s website lists those who will not be allowed in: Jews; people with Israeli stamps in their passport; “those who don’t abide by the Saudi traditions concerning appearance and behaviour”, and “those under the influence of alcohol”.

The “no Jews” clause was posted there so briefly that Google didn’t get a cached copy of it either.

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=9967

As per the above accounts, in dealing with the No Jews Rule for Saudi Arabia, there has in the past two years been an artful attempt to publicly conceal the rule from the internet reading public (in Saudi Arabia none of this can be read anyway) outside of the country. It was, back in the 1970s when I was thinking about working there that it was common knowledge and discussed by recruiters in the context of obtaining a Saudi visa.


And here is a primo example of the old absence of evidence is not evidence of absence proviso. Cleon, using the demand for evidence to support claims tactic has stumbled on one of those situations where the evidence is all around him but he/she refuses to see it. Faced with all that money versus concealing ones faith or lack of it *(atheism) I can understand Cleon's quandry as I was there once myself. Of course I would've been in Riyadh whereas if Cleon went to work for ARAMCO he would be living in one of four main family communities: Dhahran, Ras Tanura, Abqaiq or Udhailiyah. These are generally left alone by the religious police.
 
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