Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

[JayUtah]

No it is not false - it is now a knowingly dishonest lie.

Absolutely.

Double-perf longroll magazines already existed for the Hasselblad body, so double-perfing Estar base is nothing new. Estar had been around since the early 1960s, so it wasn't new. The Ektachrome E-3 process was already well established. Thinbase Estar films were already being used in CORONA spy satellites prior to 1967. Estar thinbase can have been purchased by anyone, but no one really wanted it because it's difficult to work with (e.g., loading the magazines). That wasn't a problem for Apollo except for some inconsequential perf tearouts.

Plus, Eastman Kodak didn't commission anything for Apollo. If anything, NASA commissioned Eastman Kodak to produce film for Apollo.

All this has been established in the thread previously. The only reason to keep fringe-resetting the "bespoke film" claim is to dishonestly bait another few pages of interaction. She makes the same claim over and over, and then whines that the obvious refutations of it "add nothing to the debate."

 

[Vixen]

. No one ever said anything like that. That's just another of your false claims of sexism and misogyny, part of a lame attempt to conflate criticism of you with criticism of women in general, in order to shame your detractors into muting that criticism. This is of a piece with your false claims of racism in the Amanda Knox threads.^*
_______________
^*For anyone unfamiliar, Amanda Knox and her ex-boyfriend, who are white, were wrongly convicted of the murder of Knox's roommate due to, inter alia, official misconduct, tunnel vision, and shoddy forensics. The pair's convictions were eventually overturned by the Italian Supreme Court. The actual killer, against whom the evidence is overwhelming and incontrovertible, is black. So Vixen likes to toss around false accusations of racism against those who don't agree with her guilter fantasies.

Citation, please. Bearing in mind, Knox remains permanently convicted of falsely blaming the African guy of rape and murder. Perverting the Course of Justice is classed as a serious crime in the UK, USA (Obstruction of Justice) and Italy (criminal calumny). This is factual and proven, and nothing whatever to do with this thread.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Ah, so that's why the U.K. had those fleets of roving television detectors.

(See, @Vixen, this is how a joke works.)

Germany, too. I hear the Bundespost fined you if your picture was crooked.

(This is how piggy-backing off of a joke works).

 

[Vixen]

True. However, those effects of irradiation cannot be mitigated by procedures designed to radiologically decontaminate a victim who has been contaminated. A victim may be irradiated without being contaminated. When you "joke" that they should have radiologically decontaminated the spacecraft, that tells us you don't know what you're talking about (as well as having an underdeveloped sense of humor).


Applying radiological decontamination procedures also does absolutely nothing for someone who has only been irradiated.

Look, you know perfectly well Armstrong & Aldrin had supposedly been kicking up the radioactive dust on the Moon surface, together with all kinds of highly radioactive protons and gamma rays in the Moon's immediate environment. This will have been transferred into the capsule. Claiming to have disrobed inside the capsule at splashdown and sprayed with antiseptic does nothing to mitigate this possible radioactive contamination. Further, having to remove their spacesuits without help could well mean they inhaled all kinds of dust particles in the process. So either the threat was real and they needed to properly decontaminate (whether or not there was any radiation contamination possibility) or NASA knew it was unnecessary and the squirting with Dettol for 'Moon Germs' was just a stunt for the TV cameras.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Look, you know perfectly well Armstrong & Aldrin had supposedly been kicking up the radioactive dust on the Moon surface, together with all kinds of highly radioactive protons and gamma rays. This will have been transferred into the capsule. Claiming to have disrobed inside the capsule at splashdown and sprayed with antiseptic does nothing to mitigate this possible radioactive contamination. Further, having to remove their spacesuits without help could well mean they inhaled all kinds of dust particles in the process. So either the threat was real and they needed to properly decontaminate (whether or not there was any radiation contamination possibility) or NASA knew it was unnecessary and the squirting with Dettol for 'Moon Germs' was just a stunt for the TV cameras.

Moon dust isn't particularly radioactive. It poses some other health risks, but that ain't one of them.

 

[Myriad]

(See, @Vixen, this is how a joke works.)

Okay, sure, that part was a joke. But I'm not so sure about the previous paragraph. Everything Vixen has said about the Apollo-era television transmissions, including the weird claims about keeping the picture stationary as well as the claimed irrelevance of "vague guff about radio waves" is consistent with a mental model of television transmissions being in the form of two dimensional optical pictures, as if from a projector with a very long throw and very low magnification. It's quite possible that Vixen does not have the slightest idea how analog televison images were encoded using (ahem) radio waves.

 

[threadworm]

Look, you know perfectly well Armstrong & Aldrin had supposedly been kicking up the
radioactive duston the Moon surface, together with all kinds of highly radioactive protons and gamma rays in the Moon's immediate environment. This will have been transferred into the capsule. Claiming to have disrobed inside the capsule at splashdown and sprayed with antiseptic does nothing to mitigate this possible radioactive contamination. Further, having to remove their spacesuits without help could well mean they inhaled all kinds of dust particles in the process. So either the threat was real and they needed to properly decontaminate (whether or not there was any radiation contamination possibility) or NASA knew it was unnecessary and the squirting with Dettol for 'Moon Germs' was just a stunt for the TV cameras.

Nope.

 

[Vixen]

Nope.

Yep.

 

[Mojo]

Exposure to large doses (or even long-term lower doses) of radiation causes a high risk of developing cancer or even radiation sickness. Simply spraying an astronaut who has been in a known high-radiation environment with antiseptic tells you NASA obviously didn't think it relevant here.

You were suggesting that decontamination would have been a better idea. What were you imagining they might have been contaminated with?

 

[Mojo]

No, that was 1.5 seconds, not 50.

Are we sure it wasn't 1'5"?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Yep.

How many microsieverts per hour would astronauts receive on the surface of the moon?

How many microsieverts per hour would they receive if they took a bucket full of moon dust back to earth and dumped it out on their bedroom floor?

 

[wollery]

Look, you know perfectly well Armstrong & Aldrin had supposedly been kicking up the radioactive dust on the Moon surface, together with all kinds of highly radioactive protons and gamma rays in the Moon's immediate environment. This will have been transferred into the capsule. Claiming to have disrobed inside the capsule at splashdown and sprayed with antiseptic does nothing to mitigate this possible radioactive contamination. Further, having to remove their spacesuits without help could well mean they inhaled all kinds of dust particles in the process. So either the threat was real and they needed to properly decontaminate (whether or not there was any radiation contamination possibility) or NASA knew it was unnecessary and the squirting with Dettol for 'Moon Germs' was just a stunt for the TV cameras.

Moon dust is no more radioactive than Earth dust.

I don’t even know where to begin on the “radioactive protons and gamma rays”, but I guess I could offer you a primer lesson on radioactivity. I charge £50 per hour if you’re interested.

As for the spraying with “Dettol”, they already knew it wasn’t necessary, and it was indeed mostly a “stunt” for the cameras. This has already been explained to you.

The two things - radioactive contamination and “Moon germs” - are entirely separate issues, so the spraying with Dettol had absolutely nothing to do with radioactive contamination at all.

 

[Foster Zygote]

No, it doesn't. As I said, people I know who worked with radioactive substances went through decontamination procedures after every shift. One died very young of bone cancer.

And it was explained to you, very clearly, that that was because they were exposed to radioactive materials, which can be very harmful if any tiny bits get into your body, like if you inhale a dust sized grain, or a tiny fragment gets on your hand and then you eat something and ingest it. Being exposed to ionizing radiation is completely different.

By the way, if they were exposed to those samples as students, as you said, it's extremely unlikely that they were working with anything radioactive enough to cause any health problems, at any point in their lives.

 

[JayUtah]

Look, you know perfectly well Armstrong & Aldrin had supposedly been kicking up the radioactive dust on the Moon surface...

Asked and answered. Lunar surface material emits secondary radiation only when irradiated itself, as do many common things such as aluminum. Lunar dust is not per se radioactive. It is not a radiological contaminant. Once it is no longer being irradiated itself, it stops radiating secondary radiation.

...highly radioactive protons and gamma rays in the Moon's immediate environment.

That's irradiation, not contamination.

This will have been transferred into the capsule.

No.

This is the part where you're confusing irradiation with contamination.

Claiming to have disrobed inside the capsule at splashdown and sprayed with antiseptic does nothing to mitigate this possible radioactive contamination.

The spacecraft was not radiologically contaminated.

Further, having to remove their spacesuits without help could well mean they inhaled all kinds of dust particles in the process.

True. That's a chemical and physiological health hazard, not a radiological health hazard.

So either the threat was real and they needed to properly decontaminate (whether or not there was any radiation contamination possibility) or NASA knew it was unnecessary and the squirting with Dettol for 'Moon Germs' was just a stunt for the TV cameras.

Or the third possibility is that you still don't know what you're talking about when it comes to radiation. You're just elaborately reciting your misconceptions over and over.

 

[Mojo]

Jay you may have missed my question in all the numerous pages since I asked, but is the 50 sec number that Allen indicates it took the camera to take an image and roll the film for the next image?

It includes shutter speed and the time taken to auto roll on to the next frame.

Here's what you said when you originally introduced the idea:

There were 5,771 photos taken over a total of 4,834 minutes, over all six missions (excl. Rover photos) or one every 50 secs, according to Marcus Allen. The Hasselblad shutter speed is 1.5 sec, for the shutter to open and shut and auto-wind on to the next frame. Apollo 11 took 123 surface pics in 151 minutes does the maths work?

 

[Vixen]

You were suggesting that decontamination would have been a better idea. What were you imagining they might have been contaminated with?

There isn't a high risk of radiation contact if they stayed within Lower Earth Orbit (LEO) because they would have been largely protected by being within the Earth's atmosphere. Once you go outside of that the hazards are immense. You don't need to actually be irradiated to qualify for decontamination or cancer screening. The idea is prevention, not diagnosis.

If you still do not understand why this is an issue, this article by NASA might help.

What is Radiation?​

Outside the protective cocoon of the Earth’s atmosphere is a universe full of radiation – it is all around us. Say the word “radiation” to three different people, and you’ll probably get three different reactions. Your aunt may tell you how radiation destroyed her cancer. Your neighbor might mention the “duck and cover” procedures of his day. And your comics-loving friend will explain how gamma rays turned Bruce Banner into The Hulk. Radiation comes in many forms and is all around us, all the time. But what is radiation?

Radiation is a form of energy that is emitted in the form of rays, electromagnetic waves, and/or particles. In some cases, radiation can be seen (visible light) or felt (infrared radiation), while other forms—like x-rays and gamma rays—are not visible and can only be observed with special equipment. Although radiation can have negative effects both on biological and mechanical systems, it can also be carefully used to learn more about each of those systems. NASA

 

[Foster Zygote]

As for the radioactivity issue, I merely remarked that instead of spraying the returning capsule with antiseptic for 'Moon Germs' they might have been better employed partaking in standard decontamination procedures - and I quipped they would be better off running a Geiger counter over it, rather than worrying about a non-existent ecosystem...

Just to show again how dishonestly you're characterizing your own words:

OK, so the frogmen sprayed the capsule with 'chemicals' to 'kill the Moon germs'. Then they sloshed the astronauts inside with same. They got them to change clothes in case of 'Moon germs'. Are you serious?! Not a single mention of the extremely dangerous possibility of radiation..?

An older sibling and a friend as part of their (British) degrees, spent a year at Grenoble Uni in which they spent time with radioactive materials (Chemistry course). After EVERY session they had to undergo intensive decontamination and scrub downs. I can't remember the exact details now. This would have been a similar era - early to mid-70's - so you can't argue the dangers of radiation weren't known then. The thing is, the friend subsequently died young of bone cancer, still in 30's or 40's with small children, so it was incredibly sad. A child of my sibling was born with a birth defect, possibly congenital, and thankfully, easily rectified by surgery. Now, of course, we don't know it was because of the time spent at Grenoble but for NASA to believe 'germs' are the main problem makes me realise it's not serious. Spraying with chemicals indeed.

Well, that's one debating point.

I mean, "extremely dangerous radiation" is to you what God Bless the U.S.A. is to Lee Greenwood, so it's not like it's a surprise that you would say the above.

 

[bknight]

No, it doesn’t take a Hasselbald 500/EL 50 seconds to reset the shutter and advance the film to the next frame. 1.5 seconds is more accurate.

The 50-second figure seems more consistent with the average elapsed time between when astronauts decided to take a picture. That’s not relevant to the mechanical properties of the camera.

So that would be another lie that Allen tells his audience, thanks

 

[threadworm]

Yep.

The lunar surface is not radioactive. There was no need for any radiation decontamination.

 

[Mojo]

This is similar to why TV stations have to keep a database of what televisions you own, so they can format movies "to fit this screen" as they often do. Viewers would complain if the movie was too small or too large for their screen, or missed their TV completely due to being transmitted to the wrong room.

It was even worse on radio. Sometimes the programme would be broadcast in wide format, and if you didn't have a wide speaker in your radio it wouldn't fit. I remember listening to a production of Tiny on the Bount.