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Apollo 11 Moon Landing Revisited: Hoax ~vs~ Debunk

Adam and Jamie cover quite a few of the credulous claims (they apologize in advance for not having the time to cover all of them.)
Yes, I worked on that episode. It was actually one of the first things that they wanted to handle when the show first started, but they were faced with the challenge of how to test the claims within the Mythbusters format. Too many to test, and too generally boring. And all of us who worked behind the scenes on this episode really, really wanted Adam's LM model.
 
Cropping a photo is 'editing' not 'doctoring', as in intent to deceive. The GUARDIAN pic is the ORIGINAL one, issued by NASA and reproduced in newspapers all over the world. (-5903). As of 1969. Only NASA had the rights. This is factual. Then in 2004 came the DOCTORED version - by NASA - (-684) bleaching out the 'fall off' area, and also having the effect of making Buzz look less sharp. This is cold objective fact and nothing at all to do with opinion or 'theory', conspiracy or otherwise, it just is.
Oh look, @Vixen is lying again.
 
I had forgotten about this:


Adam and Jamie cover quite a few of the credulous claims (they apologize in advance for not having the time to cover all of them.)
The boys did a bang up job busting the photographic conspiracies. Thorough and convincing. But the last (reflecting the laser) wouldn't be remotely convincing to a CTer worth his tin foil hat. Since they believe it was all a massive cover-up involving hundreds of thousands of people, tossing the Apache Observatory official in on the scam would be a given. I mean, what did they actually see? Some lines on a laptop. These guys think up a lot more elaborately crazy ◊◊◊◊ than a lone laptop display being faked.

ETA: as a side note, I am perpetually stunned that we can actually aim and hit that tiny little reflector from earth. I mean, consider the orbital mechanics and the precision needed to hit a moving target from a moving planet and the exquisite mechanical precision of aiming the thing to hit a target so incredibly small. Even being able to find it from here!
 
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The boys did a bang up job busting the photographic conspiracies. Thorough and convincing. But the last (reflecting the laser) wouldn't be remotely convincing to a CTer worth his tin foil hat. Since they believe it was all a massive cover-up involving hundreds of thousands of people, tossing the Apache Observatory official in on the scam would be a given. I mean, what did they actually see? Some lines on a laptop. These guys think up a lot more elaborately crazy ◊◊◊◊ than a lone laptop display being faked.

ETA: as a side note, I am perpetually stunned that we can actually aim and hit that tiny little reflector from earth. I mean, consider the orbital mechanics and the precision needed to hit a moving target from a moving planet and the exquisite mechanical precision of aiming the thing to hit a target so incredibly small. Even being able to find it from here!
There is also the fact that the Soviets deployed two retroreflectors via crewless rovers.
 
These guys think up a lot more elaborately crazy ◊◊◊◊ than a lone laptop display being faked.
That was why it took so long for Mythbusters to do that episode. Phil Plait, at first on his own and later with me, approached the producers early on with proposals to do an episode debunking the hoax claims. As is well known now, Adam Savage is a huge Apollo nerd and he was on board even before Phil reached out. This was something Adam really wanted to do. But since the show must have an entertainment component in order to compete in its market, it took all that time to come up with something that would be visually appealing. You can have all the science in the world behind you, but in the end the producers don't want the audience to say, "Ugh, this is boring, let's watch Dancing With the Stars instead." During preproduction I quipped that most people just tuned in to see how Tory was going to hurt himself that week. (That did not land well; the show was actually no-joking fanatical about safety.)

The problem in general with debunking is that it's very easy and very entertaining to throw out some lurid tale full of falsehoods and misconceptions that's long on entertainment impact. "Did you know they faked the Moon landings!" (MUSIC: Dun dun dunnnnnh!) More often than not the most correct answer is a dry half-hour physics lecture. This is why I never participate in "sound bite" live debates. That format always favors people who can hurl the most hogwash in 30 seconds.

Most of actual science is watching displays on laptops. It's truth, but not very entertaining. So no, that was a bad note to end on. I have occasionally discussed with Adam how it might have been done better. And there may an addendum in Adam's evolved media presence. But honestly he's more focused on the reality of Apollo than in wasting any more time debunking cranks.

There is also the fact that the Soviets deployed two retroreflectors via crewless rovers.
Indeed. From the science perspective, the Soviet retroreflectors are far less efficient that Apollo's. This is because precise alignment on the lunar surface is key to their effectiveness. Apollo's were hand-placed and hand-aimed, and as a result return much more of the input signal. The Soviet versions are also much smaller, so that they can fit within the payload capacity of a small, uncrewed lander.

But how do you show this? "Oh, look, that histogram on the laptop is much taller than that other histogram on the laptop." As a scientist I'm thrilled to have clean data. As a media consumer, I'm already reaching for the remote. And of course if you're predisposed to dispute every morsel of evidence, you can certainly say that there must be some guy in the next room fiddling with a dial to get the display to come out that way.

This touches upon a central dilemma in the debate. Hoax claimants say, "Well, if NASA really wanted to prove they went to the Moon they should have done X. Since they didn't do X, that means they were deliberately avoiding their burden of proof." NASA put the LRRRs on the Moon not to prove to doubting critics that they had been there, but to do science. Ditto all the photography, geology, and astronomy. Claims that presume NASA believed they had to build an airtight evidentiary case that would stand up to even absurd and misguided levels of doubt either requires NASA to be uncommonly prescient or devolves into circular reasoning.

Besides, in law it's common for a prosecutor to try to argue that a defendant's alibi is suspiciously airtight. Similarly if NASA had gone to comically airtight efforts to produce evidence at the time, that can be argued as a sign of premeditation and fabrication. The evidence is what it is, warts and all. The Soviets remained convinced, and they independently verified some of NASA's claims in ways only they could.

ETA: as a side note, I am perpetually stunned that we can actually aim and hit that tiny little reflector from earth. I mean, consider the orbital mechanics and the precision needed to hit a moving target from a moving planet and the exquisite mechanical precision of aiming the thing to hit a target so incredibly small. Even being able to find it from here!
It's helpful to realize that the beam spreads out so that the patch of light that lands on the lunar surface is a number of kilometers wide. So it's not like you have to hit a square-meter target with a beam only a centimeter or so wide from 380,000 km away. Of course that cuts both ways since the intensity of the beam is spread out and thus the number of photons landing on the reflector is greatly diminished. What you get back is often only a few photons. You have to pick them out of the background by range-gating and careful wavelength filtration.

And yes, the Moon is receding from Earth at the rate of about a centimeter per year.
 
It's helpful to realize that the beam spreads out so that the patch of light that lands on the lunar surface is a number of kilometers wide. So it's not like you have to hit a square-meter target with a beam only a centimeter or so wide from 380,000 km away. Of course that cuts both ways since the intensity of the beam is spread out and thus the number of photons landing on the reflector is greatly diminished. What you get back is often only a few photons. You have to pick them out of the background by range-gating and careful wavelength filtration.
Didnt realize it spread out to full kilometers wide, thanks for that. That was the really interesting part in the video, that they were picking up just a few photons from the source beam, yet are able to decisively differentiate them. Makes it all a lot more understandable. Loving seeing how this sausage gets made!
And yes, the Moon is receding from Earth at the rate of about a centimeter per year.
Dude, I'm still astounded that we can predict tides. It seems to my very very layperson understanding that our knowledge of speed and distance in planetary movements would be a little... you know... plus or minus, with a bit of play in there. But these guys have it down like Funkytown, if you'll excuse the technical jargon.
 
A lens flare generally requires the sun to be shining directly on the lens, even if the sun is not in the shot. Here the sun is behind the photographer.

Flecks like that are seen in the latter half of Roll 46 in all the dark parts, not just the sky. Because many of them display chromatic separation and a gradient of intensity across their length, this indicates an oblique passage through the emulsion layers. These are cosmic rays, a flurry of which seem to have occurred during the time when the latter half of the roll was being exposed.


Most readers are unaware of just how many photographs were taken on the Moon. Conspiracy theorists count on this. They want to suggest that only a few photos were taken (instead of thousands), and they cherry-pick some to suggest that all or many of them were "suspicious."

There were 5,771 photos taken over a total of 4,834 minutes, over all six missions (excl. Rover photos) or one every 50 secs, according to Marcus Allen. The Hasselblad shutter speed is 1.5 sec, for the shutter to open and shut and auto-wind on to the next frame. Apollo 11 took 123 surface pics in 151 minutes does the maths work?

Allen also queries how come the Ektachrome film didn't get damaged, as the equipment was not kept in a pressurised unit ? The film consists of silver halide grains in a [organic] gelatin layer, which means it would be susceptible to Galactic Cosmic Radiation (GCR) and, except for the silver chloride, would be subject to turbity. But there appears to be no radiation damage such as fogging, as might be expected and why other space missions use pressurised units. As you know, GCR makes organic matter susceptible to degradation. There is no magnetic field on the moon to protect from this.
 
The Hasselblad shutter speed is 1.5 sec, for the shutter to open and shut and auto-wind on to the next frame. Apollo 11 took 123 surface pics in 151 minutes does the maths work?
Yes, it does, especially when you correct Allen's bogus numbers.

Roll 40 was 160-ish exposures. The other rolls were shot outside the EVA time. 160 exposures in 9,060 seconds is 57 seconds per exposure, on average.

Allen also queries how come the Ektachrome film didn't get damaged, as the equipment was not kept in a pressurised unit?
Asked and answered. The polyester film base does not require pressurization, as acetate does.

The film consists of silver halide grains in a [organic] gelatin layer, which means it would be susceptible to Galactic Cosmic Radiation (GCR)
And what flux/energy is that radiation? How much would be attenuated by the magazine?

But there appears to be no radiation damage such as fogging, as might be expected...
No. Allen just simply states that radiation would fog the film, while doing absolutely nothing to verify that that would actually happen.

...other space missions use pressurised units.
Previous space missions used acetate film.

All these answers are out there. Prove you're smart, and do some actual research, instead of just parroting ignorant grifters.
 
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There were 5,771 photos taken over a total of 4,834 minutes, over all six missions (excl. Rover photos) or one every 50 secs, according to Marcus Allen. The Hasselblad shutter speed is 1.5 sec, for the shutter to open and shut and auto-wind on to the next frame. Apollo 11 took 123 surface pics in 151 minutes does the maths work?
Uh, what? 123 photos at 1.5 seconds per photo would take a total of 180 seconds, i.e. 3 minutes of total camera time. How would that not easily fit into 151 minutes?

edit: Am I missing something obvious here?
 
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The boys did a bang up job busting the photographic conspiracies. Thorough and convincing. But the last (reflecting the laser) wouldn't be remotely convincing to a CTer worth his tin foil hat. Since they believe it was all a massive cover-up involving hundreds of thousands of people, tossing the Apache Observatory official in on the scam would be a given. I mean, what did they actually see? Some lines on a laptop. These guys think up a lot more elaborately crazy ◊◊◊◊ than a lone laptop display being faked.

ETA: as a side note, I am perpetually stunned that we can actually aim and hit that tiny little reflector from earth. I mean, consider the orbital mechanics and the precision needed to hit a moving target from a moving planet and the exquisite mechanical precision of aiming the thing to hit a target so incredibly small. Even being able to find it from here!

I didn't think the video was at all convincing. If, as the deniers claim, the Apollo pictures were filmed as a studio simulation - and the astronauts went through hundreds of these in training - then of course a simulation of the alleged simulation will simply prove that the simulation was a genuine simulation. In addition, the astronauts backbacks were similar to their body weight (180lbs in the video). Imagine carrying your own weight on your back, or even, as in the 'Mythbusters' video evenly distributed around your body like a body vest. You'd be bent forward with the weight, yet they all appear perfectly upright (even with the Moon's gravity, it'd still be pro-rata-ed). As for slow motion, the guys in the video assume the slow motion would be even throughout but Allen argues they'd need to adjust it for nearer shots, to look authentic and vary it. Assuming normal motion is 24 frames per unit of time and then simply slowing it by say half, is hardly going to fool a pesky denier (if that was the plan).

As for retroreflectors, Dr Tony Cook in the OP video glibly claims you get back a signal by return thanks to the retroreflectors but in reality scanning the moon's surface can take up to eight hours before anything comes back, and even then you don't know if it came from a specific retroreflector or from anywhere on the Moon's surface, such as a valley side or mountain. MIT has been getting laser signals from the Moon since 1962 as has a couple of European unis. It simply isn't true you get a signal almost by return whilst you sit there with your Go Pro camera. It takes eight hours to get 3,000 protons back, not fifteen minutes. The US and British military has been getting radio signals from the Moon since the 1940's. The Laser Ranging Programme was axed in 2009 anyway. We can conclude that the retroreflectors 'debunk' neither proves nor disproves the Apollo 11 or other Apollo astronauts placed the there manually, in person. It has a feel-good vibe but hardly works as a debunk.

I know a lot of work went into the video but it seems geared towards impressionable primary schoolchildren who take what they are told at face value.
 
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I didn't think the video was at all convincing. If, as the deniers claim, the Apollo pictures were filmed as a studio simulation - and the astronauts went through hundreds of these in training - then of course a simulation of the alleged simulation will simply prove that the simulation was a genuine simulation. In addition, the astronauts backbacks were similar to their body weight (180lbs in the video). Imagine carrying your own weight on your back, or even, as in the 'Mythbusters' video evenly distributed around your body like a body vest. You'd be bent forward with the weight, yet they all appear perfectly upright (even with the Moon's gravity, it'd still be pro-rata-ed). As for slow motion, the guys in the video assume the slow motion would be even throughout but Allen argues they'd need to adjust it for nearer shots, to look authentic and vary it. Assuming normal motion is 24 frames per unit of time and then simply slowing it by say half, is hardly going to fool a pesky denier (if that was the plan).

As for retroreflectors, Dr Tony Cook in the OP video glibly claims you get back a signal by return thanks to the retroreflectors but in reality scanning the moon's surface can take up to eight hours before anything comes back, and even then you don't know if it came from a specific retroreflector or from anywhere on the Moon's surface, such as a valley side or mountain. MIT has been getting laser signals from the Moon since 1962 as has a couple of European unis. It simply isn't true you get a signal almost by return whilst you sit there with your Go Pro camera. It takes eight hours to get 3,000 protons back, not fifteen minutes. The US and British military has been getting radio signals from the Moon since the 1940's. The Laser Ranging Programme was axed in 2009 anyway. We can conclude that the retroreflectors 'debunk' neither proves nor disproves the Apollo 11 or other Apollo astronauts placed the there manually, in person. It has a feel-good vibe but hardly works as a debunk.

I know a lot of work went into the video but it seems geared towards impressionable primary schoolchildren who take what they are told at face value.
Rather than gullible trolls using it for clicks?
 
I didn't think the video was at all convincing.
Vague denial.

You'd be bent forward with the weight...
Such as Aldrin is in the photo in the Guardian article? In 1/6 gravity, balance isn't as hard as in full gravity.

...Allen argues they'd need to adjust it for nearer shots, to look authentic and vary it.
Apollo film and video is actually very long, continuous shots in raw form. The way it's cut up for presentation is a contrivance. Hoax claimants wrongly think the video exists in raw form as these short clips such that someone could cal "cut!" and reset for a different form of fakery.

I know a lot of work went into the video but it seems geared towards impressionable primary schoolchildren who take what they are told at face value.
Well, no, since the debunkers are the ones doing the demonstrations showing that the hoax claims are based on nonsense. The hoax claimants are the ones relying on nothing more than, "Wot I reckon is..."
 
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Galactic cosmic radiation (GCR) or "cosmic rays" do not fog film. Film is fogged by electromagnetic radiation such as x-rays and gamma rays. GCR is particles. As such, when they interact with film, they produce pinpoints of interaction, such as we see in the Apollo 12 photography. Percy made this same mistake when he tried to prove how cosmic radiation would fog film by putting it in an x-ray machine and blasting it with thousands of times more EM radiation than actually exists in space.

GCR occurs at fluxes roughy five orders of magnitude lower than you get from ordinary solar protons. They're essentially negligible for a 10-day mission or a 3-day EVA. As for ordinary solar protons, etc., the magazines are sufficient shielding. Most laypeople vastly overestimate how much radiation there is in space.
 
Galactic cosmic radiation (GCR) or "cosmic rays" do not fog film. Film is fogged by electromagnetic radiation such as x-rays and gamma rays. GCR is particles. As such, when they interact with film, they produce pinpoints of interaction, such as we see in the Apollo 12 photography. Percy made this same mistake when he tried to prove how cosmic radiation would fog film by putting it in an x-ray machine and blasting it with thousands of times more EM radiation than actually exists in space.

GCR occurs at fluxes roughy five orders of magnitude lower than you get from ordinary solar protons. They're essentially negligible for a 10-day mission or a 3-day EVA. As for ordinary solar protons, etc., the magazines are sufficient shielding. Most laypeople vastly overestimate how much radiation there is in space.
But you can apparently stop all those GCRs dead in their tracks with a small volume pressurized to .22 atmospheres.
 

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