Global Geographic Literacy Survey

[Thanz]

Let's sum up:

Sentiments in Europe are focused on worries about Bush. Not America or Americans.

This may be your opinion, but I don't think that you have established it as fact. The personal experiences of others on this board differ from yours. When I did the backpack through Europe thing in the summer of 99, I noticed a distinct difference in how I was treated once some people learned I was Canadian and not American. Not everyone, to be sure, but there is some distinct prejudice against Americans and in particular the stereotypical "Loud" American.

Sentiments in the US are focused on worries about European countries and Europe in general.

Well, no. I don't see where you are getting this from. There was certainly a backlash against France, but not all of Europe.

Americans are treated nice in Europe. Bush, on the other hand, is another matter...

Really, you haven't established this at all. You haven't actually travelled in Europe as an American. Again, my experience was in 99, before Bush was elected. Further, can you understand why an American who hears such vehement opposition to their President and sees his picture on flags stuck in dog turd might feel unwelcome? Or might not want to make this distinction that you draw?

People from other countries travel to the US far more than Americans travel to other countries.

Probably true, proportionally at least for Europe, for a number of reasons already pointed out. On a sheer numbers basis, however, for the whole world it is about the same (I think).

People from other countries travel to other countries far more than Americans.

Again, also true for a number of reasons pointed out. Tell me who is more likely to travel outside of their country: Someone who lives in a country half the size of Maine and gets six weeks of vacation, or someone who lives in a country only slightly smaller than all of Europe and gets 2 weeks of vacation?

Europe is larger than the US, and has 49 independent states, one less than the US.

Good point. Perhaps you should be treating all of Europe as one big chunk in your proportional comparisons then. What is the rate of Europeans visiting the US as opposed to other countries within Europe? Europeans obviously go to other European nations more often than the US.

Geographical knowledge is very important if you want to understand the world around you.

And the importance of geographical knowledge lessens with distance. By this I mean that it is far more important for me to understand my local geography in detail than the detail of, for example, Australia.

 

[BPSCG]

The US, I believe without direct evidence, has a larger number of smartasses per capita than anyplace else in the world.

That's not true.

The US has a larger number of smartasses than anyplace else in the world, period. Hell, approximately 13 million of New York City's residents alone are smartasses, a statistic which is all the more striking when you consider the fact that there are only about eight million New Yorkers.

 

[Luciana]

How can anyone claim to know history and not know geography? Because poor results in one make obvious a poor grasp of the other.

No one can say they understand WWII if they can't locate Russia in the map.

You can't possibly begin to understand the Israel issue if you can't locate it in the map.

Who was Christopher Columbus? You don't really know if you haven't seen the New World in the map.

Great Navigations? Imperialism in Africa? US's expansionism? WWI or just about any war there was? China, the rising power, what is that?

This is very sad and worrisome. And to think that, in the history of mankind, we have never been so well-educated. *sigh*

 

[Kerberos]

Unverifiable anecdote!

And let's not forget that extraordinary evidence is required for claims that fly in the face of established truth, and this flies in the face like a drunken swallow.

 

[Thanz]

You can't possibly begin to understand the Israel issue if you can't locate it in the map.

Really? What is it about Israel's specific location that makes it essential to understanding the conflict between it and the Palestinians?

 

[CFLarsen]

This may be your opinion, but I don't think that you have established it as fact. The personal experiences of others on this board differ from yours. When I did the backpack through Europe thing in the summer of 99, I noticed a distinct difference in how I was treated once some people learned I was Canadian and not American. Not everyone, to be sure, but there is some distinct prejudice against Americans and in particular the stereotypical "Loud" American.

The same way we all have more or less prejudice against other nationalities. The Swedish and the Norwegians are pretty rough to each other.

I don't think that Americans are generally and particularly despised.

Well, no. I don't see where you are getting this from. There was certainly a backlash against France, but not all of Europe.

Really? "If you are not with us, you are against us"? Spain wasn't criticized for pulling out after the Madrid bombings?

Really, you haven't established this at all. You haven't actually travelled in Europe as an American. Again, my experience was in 99, before Bush was elected. Further, can you understand why an American who hears such vehement opposition to their President and sees his picture on flags stuck in dog turd might feel unwelcome? Or might not want to make this distinction that you draw?

If they are not able to make that distinction, despite the obvious, why is that Europeans' fault? Should we stop criticizing Bush, so visiting Americans feel more welcome?

Probably true, proportionally at least for Europe, for a number of reasons already pointed out. On a sheer numbers basis, however, for the whole world it is about the same (I think).

Why don't you find out? I've provided hard data. You try the same.

Again, also true for a number of reasons pointed out. Tell me who is more likely to travel outside of their country: Someone who lives in a country half the size of Maine and gets six weeks of vacation, or someone who lives in a country only slightly smaller than all of Europe and gets 2 weeks of vacation?

You forget - or simply don't know - that Danes have not always travelled outside the country. It took off in earnest in the 60's and 70's, when it became possible for us to travel further. The charter industry boomed and is still one of major importance here. It has very much to do with ability and desire to travel.

Good point. Perhaps you should be treating all of Europe as one big chunk in your proportional comparisons then. What is the rate of Europeans visiting the US as opposed to other countries within Europe? Europeans obviously go to other European nations more often than the US.

Why don't you go find out?

And the importance of geographical knowledge lessens with distance. By this I mean that it is far more important for me to understand my local geography in detail than the detail of, for example, Australia.

Wrong. The importance of geographical knowledge lessens with relevance, not distance. It is very important for Americans to know a great deal about the Middle East, because the US depends so much on that area. On the other hand, it is not all that important for Americans to know the inner details of Costa Rica, even though it is much closer.

Not really -- I grew up in a family of diplomats and in an area where a larger-than-usual number of students grew up similarly. So I'm something of a geography outlier for the US and don't really have much to add to the country-wide state of knowledge.

Of course you don't.

OK, I will go on record on one thing. The US, I believe without direct evidence, has a larger number of smartasses per capita than anyplace else in the world. So it's entirely possible that at least some US respondants knew some of the answers (i.e., spot the US on a map of the world) but gave an incorrect response nonetheless. That might account for a couple of points of the apparent knowledge deficit (but, to be clear, by no means all or even a majority of it).

Sure, it's possible. But why on Earth would they do that? You are arguing that Americans might be smarter than they seem, but choose not to appear smarter. How smart is that?

How can anyone claim to know history and not know geography? Because poor results in one make obvious a poor grasp of the other.

No one can say they understand WWII if they can't locate Russia in the map.

You can't possibly begin to understand the Israel issue if you can't locate it in the map.

Who was Christopher Columbus? You don't really know if you haven't seen the New World in the map.

Great Navigations? Imperialism in Africa? US's expansionism? WWI or just about any war there was? China, the rising power, what is that?

This is very sad and worrisome. And to think that, in the history of mankind, we have never been so well-educated. *sigh*

Right on. Geography is closely linked to history. You can't argue intelligently about either politics or social issues (to pick a few), unless you know the historical and geographical background.

And let's not forget that extraordinary evidence is required for claims that fly in the face of established truth, and this flies in the face like a drunken swallow.

Yeah, but is it an African swallow or a European swallow...?

 

[Luciana]

Really? What is it about Israel's specific location that makes it essential to understanding the conflict between it and the Palestinians?

Jerusalem?

Being surrounded by Islamic countries? Six Days War? Occupied territories? Water? Golam? Gaza Strip?

How could anyone grasp even the basics if they can't locate Israel in the map? And really, is that hard at all? No.

 

[CFLarsen]

Really? What is it about Israel's specific location that makes it essential to understanding the conflict between it and the Palestinians?

How can you understand the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians without knowing anything about the history and geography of the region?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[BPSCG]

OK, I will go on record on one thing. The US, I believe without direct evidence, has a larger number of smartasses per capita than anyplace else in the world. So it's entirely possible that at least some US respondants knew some of the answers (i.e., spot the US on a map of the world) but gave an incorrect response nonetheless. That might account for a couple of points of the apparent knowledge deficit (but, to be clear, by no means all or even a majority of it).

Sure, it's possible. But why on Earth would they do that?

Because we're smartasses!!! Duh!

Do try to keep up.

 

[claimee]

Thanz

Really? What is it about Israel's specific location that makes it essential to understanding the conflict between it and the Palestinians?

CFLarsen

How can you understand the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians without knowing anything about the history and geography of the region?

Thanz

...specific location that makes it essential to understanding...

CFLarsen

...without knowing anything about the history and geography...

Thanz

...specific location...

CFLarsen

...history and geography...

 

[BPSCG]

Really? What is it about Israel's specific location that makes it essential to understanding the conflict between it and the Palestinians?

If you live in Chicago and you don't know where Israel and Palestine are, you might wonder why those Jews living in the suburbs can't get along with the Muslims there. And why are they shooting at each other?

Eh, who cares? American Idol is on!

 

[Nyarlathotep]

The French proportionally visit the US more than USAians visit France:

8% of the 24,452,000 USAians travelled to France. That's 1,956,160, out of a population of 295,734,134. That's 0.66%

688,887 French travelled to the US. Out of a population of 60,656,178, that's 1.14%

Additional source

Gee, ain't geographical knowledge grand? .

Good for them. That does not change the fact that if I were French or Arab I would not feel comfortable traveling to the US, for much the same reason that as an American, I don't feel comfortable travelling to Europe,

As you will notice, the protests have been against Bush. Not Americans.

And it is not the Anti-Bush protests that put me off. I'm not over fond of the bastage either. It's the sheer number of people (mostly places other than here, but here to an extent too) I see talking about how stupid/ugly/insert-negative-trait-here Americans are. Not Bush, Americans. It's the horror stories I hear about how Americans get treated over there. It's even stories like Vorticity's about how he was treated like a clever talking monkey because he had a bit of basic knowledge. I realize its not everybody. I realize its probably not even a majority of people. But as the saying goes, it takes only a little bit of sewage to spoil the soup.

 

[Kerberos]

Well, my German isn't exactly Goethe, but why don't you run it by some of the German speakers here and see how close I came?

Ok, Is there anybody on this thread who can help us determine whether "Ich Sprechren nicht sehr gut Deutch". Means "I believe I will vomit on that leper" as BPSCG thinks or "I don't speak German very well" which was what I think it means. Considering that the only word the two translations have in common is "I" I think it's safe to assume that at least one of us is horribly wrong.

 

[CFLarsen]

Good for them. That does not change the fact that if I were French or Arab I would not feel comfortable traveling to the US, for much the same reason that as an American, I don't feel comfortable travelling to Europe,

Perhaps if you did travel to Europe, it might not be anywhere near as bad as you fear? Travelling to other countries is a very learning experience.

And it is not the Anti-Bush protests that put me off. I'm not over fond of the bastage either. It's the sheer number of people (mostly places other than here, but here to an extent too) I see talking about how stupid/ugly/insert-negative-trait-here Americans are. Not Bush, Americans. It's the horror stories I hear about how Americans get treated over there. It's even stories like Vorticity's about how he was treated like a clever talking monkey because he had a bit of basic knowledge. I realize its not everybody. I realize its probably not even a majority of people. But as the saying goes, it takes only a little bit of sewage to spoil the soup.

Well, what about the outpouring of sympathy for Americans after 9-11? Does that count at all?

We need to see hard numbers on this, not rely on horror-stories.

 

[Thanz]

The same way we all have more or less prejudice against other nationalities. The Swedish and the Norwegians are pretty rough to each other.

I don't think that Americans are generally and particularly despised.

I din't say they were. I did say that they are treated worse than, for example, Canadians.

Really? "If you are not with us, you are against us"? Spain wasn't criticized for pulling out after the Madrid bombings?

Aren't you advocating the separation of "Bush" from "Americans"? And WRT Spain, again, that is a specific country, not Europe as a whole.

If they are not able to make that distinction, despite the obvious, why is that Europeans' fault? Should we stop criticizing Bush, so visiting Americans feel more welcome?

You can do what you like. But you should also understand that by criticising Bush, you make Europe less welcoming for a significant segment of the US population.

Why don't you find out? I've provided hard data. You try the same.

From here: http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/f-2000-04-001/index.html
Europe to US, 1999: 11,242,690

From here: http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/f-1999-11-001/index.html
US to Europe, 1999: 11,577,000

So, about the same in terms of overall numbers of visitors.

You forget - or simply don't know - that Danes have not always travelled outside the country. It took off in earnest in the 60's and 70's, when it became possible for us to travel further. The charter industry boomed and is still one of major importance here. It has very much to do with ability and desire to travel.

You leave out one possibility: I don't care about the history of Danish tourism 30 to 40 years ago. It doesn't help me at all about today, or answer my question.

Why don't you go find out?

The raw numbers for 1999 are above.

According to here: http://www.popco.org/press/articles/2004-1-myers.html

The population of the US: about 293 million.
The population of Europe: about 726 million.

So it seems, then, that proportionally more Americans visit Europe than Europeans visit the US.

Huh. Whodathunkit?

Wrong. The importance of geographical knowledge lessens with relevance, not distance. It is very important for Americans to know a great deal about the Middle East, because the US depends so much on that area. On the other hand, it is not all that important for Americans to know the inner details of Costa Rica, even though it is much closer.

Good point. You're right, I was using "distance" as a sort of proxy for "relevance".

Based on this, however, you would think that Americans would know more about Canada than any other country. We share the world's longest undefended border, we are the US's largest trading partner, we even supply more oil to the US than any other country. Yet Americans tend not to know too much about the geography or politics of Canada.

 

[Thanz]

Jerusalem?

Being surrounded by Islamic countries? Six Days War? Occupied territories? Water? Golam? Gaza Strip?

How could anyone grasp even the basics if they can't locate Israel in the map? And really, is that hard at all? No.

There is a whole lot you can tell someone about the history of the conflict and the region as a whole without having them be able to pick it out on a map. For instance, you can say that it is surrounded by Muslim nations. You can say that Jerusalem is considered to be the most important city for all three major mono-theistic religions. (aside: is this true for Islam? Is Jerusalem more "important" than Mecca?). I can understand that fact without being able to point to Jerusalem on a map.

Is it hard to pick out Israel on a map? No. Is it essential to even begin understanding the conflict? Also no.

 

[BPSCG]

Well, what about the outpouring of sympathy for Americans after 9-11? Does that count at all?

No.

Talk is cheap. And actions speak louder than words.

 

[karl]

Going back to the survey, I'd like to present the hypothesis that the more boring your country is, the more likely your average 18-to-24-year-old is to travel to other countries, and the more attention he/she will pay to what goes on in the rest of the world.

Consider that the US and Canada have roughly the same geographical size, yet the Canadians are almost three times as likely to have traveled to another country in the past three years. And Germany, Italy, Japan and the UK are all geographically smaller than Sweden, yet their citizens are considerably less well-traveled.

I'm not going to get into whether the resulting geographic literacy is inherently a good thing. As with any other knowledge, those who don't have it tend to insist that it isn't important, and vice versa.

 

[BPSCG]

Consider that the US and Canada have roughly the same geographical size, yet the Canadians are almost three times as likely to have traveled to another country in the past three years.

It's a little-known fact that hundreds of millions of 'Murricans visit Canada every year. Problem is, most of them think Canada is part of the US, so they answer "no" when asked if they've visited outside the US...

You can look it up; you just won't find it anywhere...

 

[Bindamel]

19/20, missed the religion question, didn't need the multiple choice for the country identifications.

This might be a little off-topic NOW, but the best "geography" class I ever had was in grade 6 (around age 11-12), when our teacher required us to make copies of maps by measuring off points on an original, scaling them by a factor, and creating new maps from that. We mostly did U.S. states, but it was a good exercise not only in geography, but also in dimensional math (english units, you know 1 13/16" x 3.5 = ???).

Most of my world geography knowledge came from a wonderful atlas my parents had. Besides standard maps, it had some fascinating acetate sheets bound in that presented "historical geography". For example, there was one that showed territory state progression in the U.S. from 1776 to 1959. Each acetate sheet was an overlay adding about 50 years of expansion to the base map.

And, strangely enough, Hutch, my high school geography teacher was a football coach. ;D