Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Elaedith]

These are extreme examples of personal abuse, but you made no such qualification in your original claim.

Mel Curth, just a few weeks ago at my wife's alma mater.

(Go Sooners, beat 'Bama.)

I thought it was people supporting traditional gender norms who tried to get Mel Curth fired. That is the opposite to what 'gender critical' means in the UK (or to any sensible definition of gender critical). You can't be critical of the concept of gender and also support the enforcement of gender norms.

 

[Elaedith]

Did you... actually read the story?

"She told a psychiatrist she had stabbed Brianna “repeatedly” and had found it “exciting”, and that she killed her because she thought Brianna would stop being her friend. She murdered Brianna so she would “always be with her”, the court heard."​

That's really messed up, but I don't know how you draw an anti-trans motive from that. The other person said some "transphobic" stuff but there's no indication that the decision for him was motivated by transphobia either.

Even if it was, being gender critical is not 'transphobia.' That's like saying that being an atheist means having a phobia about religion and religious people.

 

[d4m10n]

You can't be critical of the concept of gender and also support the enforcement of gender norms.

Fair enough, but the political polarization I mentioned at #14,527 was TRA vs. anti-TRA, and here in the U.S. most of the latter group are gender traditionalists rather than second wave feminists. I've no idea what gendercrits think about the Curth suspension, or even if they have any comment.

 

[Elaedith]

Fair enough, but the political polarization I mentioned at #14,527 was TRA vs. anti-TRA, and here in the U.S. most of the latter group are gender traditionalists rather than second wave feminists. I've no idea what gendercrits think about the Curth suspension, or even if they have any comment.

You mentioned it in response to a request for examples of gender-critical people starting a campaign to get a transgender academic fired. It probably would have been more apt to ask for examples of gender-critical people trying to get an academic fired (transgender or not) for expressing a belief in gender identity (e.g. hearing somebody say 'trans women are women' makes me 'feel unsafe' and is therefore equivalent to harassment). That is equivalent to what trans activists do.

 

[d4m10n]

You mentioned it in response to a request for examples of gender-critical people starting a campaign to get a transgender academic fired.

Which was itself a response to my comment at #14,527, where the respondent narrowed the scope of "anti-TRA" in my comment to gender critical folks in particular. I do not accept that narrowing of the scope of discussion, because most of the actual counter-activism against trans rights is coming from traditionalists rather than gendercrits here in the United States. When an American academic finds themselves in danger of losing their position because they identify as transgender and/or support trans rights, that danger is coming from TPUSA and their poltical allies, not from the gendercrits.

It probably would have been more apt to ask for examples of gender-critical people trying to get an academic fired (transgender or not) for expressing a belief in gender identity (e.g. hearing somebody say 'trans women are women' makes me 'feel unsafe' and is therefore equivalent to harassment).

We can safely assume this doesn't happen, but it's hard to know whether it would happen if the second wave gendercrits had as much academic clout as the third wave intersectionalists do.

 

[Thermal]

When was the last time you saw a group of Gender Critical people shouting down their opponents with a megaphone... or calling for transpeople to be punched, or hung or killed... When was the last time you heard of gender critical people undertaking a social media campaign to cancel trans meetings, or protests. When was the last time you heard of gender critical people running a letter writing campaign to get a transgender academic removed from their tenure at a university?

Are you joking? One side here... no names now... actually fills body bags.

https://reports.hrc.org/an-epidemic-of-violence-2024#epidemic-numbers

 

[Ziggurat]

Are you joking? One side here... no names now... actually fills body bags.

https://reports.hrc.org/an-epidemic-of-violence-2024#epidemic-numbers

We have been over this before. Every time these cases are actually examined, it turns out that it wasn't anti-trans violence, just violence against a victim who happens to be trans.

ETA: even your own source hints at this.
"INTERPERSONAL VIOLENCE—INCLUDING DATING/INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE— IS A SIGNIFICANT CAUSE OF FATAL VIOLENCE"
We have pointed this out before. The intimate partner of a trans person doesn't belong on the list of gender critical or even conservative opponents of TRAs. The fact that so many trans people are killed by their own intimate partners should perhaps suggest that transitioning isn't helping them.

 

[Thermal]

We have been over this before. Every time these cases are actually examined, it turns out that it wasn't anti-trans violence, just violence against a victim who happens to be trans.

ETA: even your own source hints at this.
"INTERPERSONAL VIOLENCE—INCLUDING DATING/INTIMATE PARTNER VIOLENCE— IS A SIGNIFICANT CAUSE OF FATAL VIOLENCE"
We have pointed this out before. The intimate partner of a trans person doesn't belong on the list of gender critical or even conservative opponents of TRAs. The fact that so many trans people are killed by their own intimate partners should perhaps suggest that transitioning isn't helping them.

The source specifies data linked to FBI cases, where anti-trans hate was specifically determined to be the motive. They opine, for basically the same reasons you fairly note, that the actual stats are under reported, as the FBI did not include trans people killed where they didn't determine that anti-trans hate was the motivator.

eta: if you prefer, Wikipedia lists trans people murdered for being trans, with links to the specifics. We could compare them with the list of gender critical people murdered for being gender critical? I am having trouble finding it.

List of people killed for being transgender - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We can start with the most recent. From the Washington Post story linked as the source for the last entry on the Wiki list-

"Edgar Arrington, 38, was arrested in North Carolina last week in connection with the killing of Daquan Johnson, a 28-year-old transgender woman known by friends and family as Dream. Arrington did not know Johnson, but ridiculed her for being transgender before pulling a gun on her and shooting her repeatedly, prosecutors said in a news release Thursday."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/09/19/transgender-woman-killed-hate-crime-arrest-us-attorney/

So is this fake news? Do we have a comparable story of a TRA murdering a stranger on the street, ridiculing them for being gender critical?

 

[theprestige]

The source specifies data linked to FBI cases, where anti-trans hate was specifically determined to be the motive. They opine, for basically the same reasons you fairly note, that the actual stats are under reported, as the FBI did not include trans people killed where they didn't determine that anti-trans hate was the motivator.

eta: if you prefer, Wikipedia lists trans people murdered for being trans, with links to the specifics. We could compare them with the list of gender critical people murdered for being gender critical? I am having trouble finding it.

List of people killed for being transgender - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's ironic that after complaining that the gendercrits think of all transfolk as the same kind of monster, instead of treating each of them as individual human beings... And then all your examples of anti-trans "body bags" seem to be about people who have gotten to know an individual human transperson personally.

 

[Thermal]

It's ironic that after complaining that the gendercrits think of all transfolk as the same kind of monster, instead of treating each of them as individual human beings... And then all your examples of anti-trans "body bags" seem to be about people who have gotten to know an individual human transperson personally.

Just for you, i added the details of the most recent entry on the wiki list, where they were coincidentally complete strangers passing each other on the street.

 

[Ziggurat]

The source specifies data linked to FBI cases, where anti-trans hate was specifically determined to be the motive.

I followed their link to the FBI Crime Data Explorer. It doesn't break out murders. So their link doesn't back up their claim. Now, maybe something else does, I don't know, but their link doesn't.

So I decided to look at some of the individual cases they hilight. I didn't go through all of them, but I went through the first 6, the 2023 cases. And what did I find? In not a single one of them was any evidence presented by your source that their killings were the result of any anti-trans bias. In fact, the HRC didn't even claim those cases were motivated by anti-trans hate.

It's weird how that keeps happening.

 

[Ziggurat]

Now let's look at some of that pro-trans violence.

Annunciation Catholic Church shooting, 2025. 2 dead, 30 wounded.
Nashville school shooting, 2023. 6 dead, 2 injured.
Zizians trans cult killings, 2022 to 2025. 6 dead.
Charlie Kirk assassination, 2025, 1 dead.

Note that this is just actual killings. I'm not going to try to tally the harassment and assault, such as what went on at the London protests, that's too numerous for me to try to count up.

 

[Thermal]

I followed their link to the FBI Crime Data Explorer. It doesn't break out murders. So their link doesn't back up their claim. Now, maybe something else does, I don't know, but their link doesn't.

So I decided to look at some of the individual cases they hilight. I didn't go through all of them, but I went through the first 6, the 2023 cases. And what did I find? In not a single one of them was any evidence presented by your source that their killings were the result of any anti-trans bias. In fact, the HRC didn't even claim those cases were motivated by anti-trans hate.

It's weird how that keeps happening.

Fair criticism, I also skimmed over the FBI data and it is not tremendously detailed, as it wasn't their intent.

Please see my eta above, where I cite cases which will be more relevant to the argument, specifically how it is the trans side which is more violent. We'll have more on topic elbow room to compare body counts.

 

[Thermal]

Now let's look at some of that pro-trans violence.

Annunciation Catholic Church shooting, 2025. 2 dead, 30 wounded.
Nashville school shooting, 2023. 6 dead, 2 injured.
Zizians trans cult killings, 2022 to 2025. 6 dead.
Charlie Kirk assassination, 2025, 1 dead.

Note that this is just actual killings. I'm not going to try to tally the harassment and assault, such as what went on at the London protests, that's too numerous for me to try to count up.

Kirk's murder may well qualify, although high profile assassinations of public figures fall into a slightly different category. General.mass shootings do not, as they are not targeting individuals for being gender critical. They are indiscriminate.

 

[d4m10n]

Kirk's murder may well qualify, although high profile assassinations of public figures fall into a slightly different category.

Has anyone other than Kirk really been targeted on account of anti-trans speech?

Has anyone ever been targeted for lethal violence on account of pro-trans speech?

ETA: Tryna compare like with like, for the sake of fairness.

 

[Ziggurat]

Please see my eta above, where I cite cases which will be more relevant to the argument, specifically how it is the trans side which is more violent. We'll have more on topic elbow room to compare body counts.

Third case from the bottom of the list, Abuja Area Mama, nothing in the source link indicates any motive. Why is it on this list? The list is purportedly cases motivated by anti-trans hatred, but it includes cases where the motive is unknown. So the list is mischaracterized, as these lists normally are.

But let's narrow it down a bit. We know that cultures in undeveloped countries are often hostile to minority groups, so violence in undeveloped countries isn't an indicator of what's going on in developed countries. So I'm only going to considering cases from developed countries. I'm also going to only look at 2020's, not earlier, to make it easier.

Alexa Luciano Ruiz - Puerto Rico, 2020. Was assaulted prior to being murdered. The assault was ruled transphobic, but the murder is unsolved. Given that Ruiz was homeless, and homeless people are at high risk for all kinds of violence, I'm not going to assume that the murder was transphobic, but I'll accept that the prior assault was.

Selena Reyes-Hernandez - Chicago, 2020. Murdered after revealing trans status to a potential romantic partner. I'll accept that this is anti-trans, but I don't categorize it as ideological. I think it was very personal.

Brayla Stone, Arkansas 2020. Murdered by sexual partner. Wikipedia claims that "the killer was "afraid of being considered homosexual" were Stone to reveal their relationship", which you might argue is transphobia, but considering that the murderer was in a sexual relationship with the victim, I don't think it qualifies as transphobic.

Serena Angelique Velázquez and Layla Pelaez, Puerto Rico 2020. From one of the links, ""We are classifying it as a hate crime because they were socializing with the victims, and once they found out they were transgender women, they decided to kill them,"" So like the Chicago case, I consider it anti-trans but not ideological.

Ariyanna Mitchell, Virginia, 2022. The Wikipedia page says, "shot and killed by 19-year-old Jimmy LeShawn Williams with an assault rifle, after he asked her if she was transgender, and she replied, "yes"." Sounds pretty clear. And yet, when I look up one of their sources, the water gets considerably muddier. "The friend [of the victim] said the shooting stemmed from a fight at a party in Norfolk earlier that night. She said the fight was between her [the friend] and William’s girlfriend– and that the bullet was meant for her, not Mitchell." So we have contradictory claims about the motive. I consider this unsettled.

Cherry Bush, Los Angeles, 2022. Perp charged with a hate crime after using anti-trans slurs. I don't consider that convincing. If you're willing to kill someone, whatever the reason is, you're probably willing to insult them, and do so in the most insulting way possible. And the most insulting way most people know how to insult someone else (especially a stranger) is some identity-based slur. That doesn't mean that the slur indicates motive. Both the perp and the victim were homeless. There are countless reasons they could have come into conflict with each other besides anti-trans bias.

Brianna Ghey, UK, 2023. We already went over this one. Not actually motivated by anti-trans animus.

Daquan Johnson, Washington DC, 2025. Case is charged as hate crime. Unless new info shows up (existing info is pretty sparse), I'll give you this one.

So that's 1 transphobic assault, 3 murders from potential sexual partners who freaked out when they found out, 1 by an actual sexual partner, 3 murders with what I consider unknown motives, 1 murder that's not transphobic, and 1 that seems to be random transphobic.

A note on the "panic" murders: these are absolutely unjustified murders, and it's fair to call them transphobic, but I DON'T consider them ideological in any way. I don't think any of the arguments we're having in this thread, any of the viewpoints put forward here, could ever contribute to such a response.

Even 1 murder is too many, but the numbers don't actually look very high.

 

[Elaedith]

Even 1 murder is too many, but the numbers don't actually look very high.

We have been over that in the past too. If there were 57 murders of people identifying as trans in the UK in 2021, that equates to a homicide rate of around 1.7 per 100,000 assuming 1% of the population is transgender. The overall US homicide rate in 2021 was about 6.8 per 100,000. 'Transgender and gender non-conforming people' look like one of the safest demographics in the US according to those stats.

 

[Thermal]

Has anyone other than Kirk really been targeted on account of anti-trans speech?

Has anyone ever been targeted for lethal violence on account of pro-trans speech?

ETA: Tryna compare like with like, for the sake of fairness.

None spring to mind, but in fairness, none rise to internatiinal prominence like Kirk and Rowling, who's names are well known at the average kitchen table. I'd opine that if you asked someone who a prominent pro-trans speaker was, you'd get a blank stare.

 

[d4m10n]

I'd opine that if you asked someone who a prominent pro-trans speaker was, you'd get a blank stare.

There is at least one obvious answer, though I suppose most Americans don't follow SCOTUS all that closely.

ETA: I sort of wonder if median kitchen table enjoyers knew of Charlie Kirk before his murder.

 

[Thermal]

Third case from the bottom of the list, Abuja Area Mama, nothing in the source link indicates any motive. Why is it on this list? The list is purportedly cases motivated by anti-trans hatred, but it includes cases where the motive is unknown. So the list is mischaracterized, as these lists normally are.

But let's narrow it down a bit. We know that cultures in undeveloped countries are often hostile to minority groups, so violence in undeveloped countries isn't an indicator of what's going on in developed countries. So I'm only going to considering cases from developed countries. I'm also going to only look at 2020's, not earlier, to make it easier.

Alexa Luciano Ruiz - Puerto Rico, 2020. Was assaulted prior to being murdered. The assault was ruled transphobic, but the murder is unsolved. Given that Ruiz was homeless, and homeless people are at high risk for all kinds of violence, I'm not going to assume that the murder was transphobic, but I'll accept that the prior assault was.

Selena Reyes-Hernandez - Chicago, 2020. Murdered after revealing trans status to a potential romantic partner. I'll accept that this is anti-trans, but I don't categorize it as ideological. I think it was very personal.

Brayla Stone, Arkansas 2020. Murdered by sexual partner. Wikipedia claims that "the killer was "afraid of being considered homosexual" were Stone to reveal their relationship", which you might argue is transphobia, but considering that the murderer was in a sexual relationship with the victim, I don't think it qualifies as transphobic.

Serena Angelique Velázquez and Layla Pelaez, Puerto Rico 2020. From one of the links, ""We are classifying it as a hate crime because they were socializing with the victims, and once they found out they were transgender women, they decided to kill them,"" So like the Chicago case, I consider it anti-trans but not ideological.

Ariyanna Mitchell, Virginia, 2022. The Wikipedia page says, "shot and killed by 19-year-old Jimmy LeShawn Williams with an assault rifle, after he asked her if she was transgender, and she replied, "yes"." Sounds pretty clear. And yet, when I look up one of their sources, the water gets considerably muddier. "The friend [of the victim] said the shooting stemmed from a fight at a party in Norfolk earlier that night. She said the fight was between her [the friend] and William’s girlfriend– and that the bullet was meant for her, not Mitchell." So we have contradictory claims about the motive. I consider this unsettled.

Cherry Bush, Los Angeles, 2022. Perp charged with a hate crime after using anti-trans slurs. I don't consider that convincing. If you're willing to kill someone, whatever the reason is, you're probably willing to insult them, and do so in the most insulting way possible. And the most insulting way most people know how to insult someone else (especially a stranger) is some identity-based slur. That doesn't mean that the slur indicates motive. Both the perp and the victim were homeless. There are countless reasons they could have come into conflict with each other besides anti-trans bias.

Brianna Ghey, UK, 2023. We already went over this one. Not actually motivated by anti-trans animus.

Daquan Johnson, Washington DC, 2025. Case is charged as hate crime. Unless new info shows up (existing info is pretty sparse), I'll give you this one.

So that's 1 transphobic assault, 3 murders from potential sexual partners who freaked out when they found out, 1 by an actual sexual partner, 3 murders with what I consider unknown motives, 1 murder that's not transphobic, and 1 that seems to be random transphobic.

A note on the "panic" murders: these are absolutely unjustified murders, and it's fair to call them transphobic, but I DON'T consider them ideological in any way. I don't think any of the arguments we're having in this thread, any of the viewpoints put forward here, could ever contribute to such a response.

Even 1 murder is too many, but the numbers don't actually look very high.

Some, like Mitchell, are not exactly "unsettled". I mean, an ongoing fight involving various targets is one thing, but being asked about a gender identity and receiving a bullet for the reply (as witnesses testified) is not really 'unsettled' territory. The one witness who had their own experience of mind reading regarding the killer's motivations doesn't really pack much evidentiary punch.