The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Here_to_learn]

Saying 'it is an assumption' is akin to guesswork, when surely it MUST know. Well, of course, you might think it matters not a jot what the captain was doing or where he was, as one can blame the two strong waves.

You still fail. I specifically pointed out that I only quoted a small part of that chapter. You obviously haven't read/understood what else is in that chapter.

And the "two strong waves" was discussed just a couple of days ago, apparently you didn't understand that discussion either.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Tesla in Sweden is still owned by Tesla US, is it not; Elon Musk at the helm..?

I see that you missed to reply to this part.

Show us the source of the evaluation of the different proposals, where they were rated from fulfilling the requirements, experience and cost.

Looking forward to your reply.

 

[junkshop]

It's a pertinent question to ask why Rockwater (part of the US Halliburton Group, the CEO, warmongerer, the late Dick Cheney) divers British/Irish were given the contract when Norwegian, Dutch and Swedish divers were more cost beneficial for the taxpayer plus logistically more familiar with the Baltic Sea. The obvious answer is the CIA element and US involvement. and interest in the disaster.

As has already been pointed out to you, Cheney didn't become CEO of Haliburton until 1995. The Rockwater dive happened in 1994.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

As has already been pointed out to you, Cheney didn't become CEO of Haliburton until 1995. The Rockwater dive happened in 1994.

It's almost like the content doesn't matter and it's all about attention.

But of course it can't be that. Vixen is just really interested in the topic and I'm sure that she will notice and accept this correction.

So Vixen, how about it? Care to accept that Cheney was not involved in any way?

 

[Here_to_learn]

That is not correct. It is one of the criticisms levelled at the JAIC by experts sceptical that the cause of the accident was proven to have happened as it claimed.

Apart from you which experts are skeptical that waves can't break windows?

Vixen might have missed this one - looking forward to a response on the experts.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Remind us again how many forensic engineering investigations you have personally participated in? Use primes notation if necessary.

"""'Science Degree"""'

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Vixen might have missed this one - looking forward to a response on the experts.

They can't break hull windows. Only superstructure windows.

 

[Axxman300]

Obviously this must surely have been carried out, yet the public aren't informed, when key to the accident is what the heck was going on such that assistant crew are doing the MAYDAY on handheld phones which kept losing signal, instead of from the proper communications on the bridge. Tammes had to have some guy in the background shouting out the coordinates, when it should have been flashing up in front of him. Tammes couldn't speak English, as is protocol in these communications, but luckily he managed Finnish.

You seem not to understand what it means when a ship is listing. At some point the floor begins to become the wall. I don't know where the radio equipment was in relationship to the GPS, but it probably wasn't in the same place, or far enough away that someone else had to climb up or down to read it. Why can't you figure the easy things out?

 

[Axxman300]

It's a pertinent question to ask why Rockwater (part of the US Halliburton Group, the CEO, warmongerer, the late Dick Cheney) divers British/Irish were given the contract when Norwegian, Dutch and Swedish divers were more cost beneficial for the taxpayer plus logistically more familiar with the Baltic Sea. The obvious answer is the CIA element and US involvement. and interest in the disaster.

No, the obvious answer won the bid and got the contract. As for Haliburton, they're a large (huge) international energy company. Because they're international, they have assets just about everywhere. In this case it would have been a red flag if Rockwater didn't get the contract.

And this is Haliburton's website, because they're obviously evil: https://www.halliburton.com/

 

[SteveAitch]

You seem not to understand what it means when a ship is listing. At some point the floor begins to become the wall. I don't know where the radio equipment was in relationship to the GPS, but it probably wasn't in the same place, or far enough away that someone else had to climb up or down to read it. Why can't you figure the easy things out?

Doesn't need to. To paraphrase a certain D. Adams, "The Guide Vixen is definitive. Reality is frequently inaccurate."

 

[Axxman300]

Er, Andi Meister was the Estonian government minister for transport when he was appointed head of the Estonian element of the JAIC. He resigned in protest of what he believed was information being withheld from the Estonian side by the Swedes.

Weird, the head of the same agency that let Estonia sail even with a list of repair issues resigns after he realizes he might be the baddie.

 

[Axxman300]

How can it ascertain how the ship sank if they haven't even verified the captain was at the steering wheel, as it were, when events unfolded? Responsibility has to be apportioned. Well of course they will have gone to some lengths for the answers, except it would appear to be 'classified' to us. The question is, why?

Oooh, I can answer this one.

See, between the time of the sinking and the underwater survey they interviewed the surviving passengers and crew. They knew there was water on the car deck. Then they get on site and they notice the bow of the Estonia looks funny on side-scan, and the ROV confirms the bow visor is gone. And then they use sonar to find the visor, and later raised it to the surface. So the cause was the BOW VISOR BEING KNOCKED OFF WRENCHING THE BOW RAMP OPEN, FLOODING THE SHIP (WITH WATER).

The bridge personnel do not matter. Their actions do.

 

[Steve]

Oooh, I can answer this one.

See, between the time of the sinking and the underwater survey they interviewed the surviving passengers and crew. They knew there was water on the car deck. Then they get on site and they notice the bow of the Estonia looks funny on side-scan, and the ROV confirms the bow visor is gone. And then they use sonar to find the visor, and later raised it to the surface. So the cause was the BOW VISOR BEING KNOCKED OFF WRENCHING THE BOW RAMP OPEN, FLOODING THE SHIP (WITH WATER).

The bridge personnel do not matter. Their actions do.

You really don't understand how conspiracies work, go you?

 

[Here_to_learn]

You seem not to understand what it means when a ship is listing. At some point the floor begins to become the wall. I don't know where the radio equipment was in relationship to the GPS, but it probably wasn't in the same place, or far enough away that someone else had to climb up or down to read it. Why can't you figure the easy things out?

And there are a couple of more reasons. If you have a blackout your primary radio gear might not work. And if you have a severe list your antenna is no longer sending the radio waves parallel to the surface as you need it to do to reach other ships or coastal stations. Being able to climb outside and bring a VHF handheld radio (not a phone...) can make a lot of sense.

 

[Here_to_learn]

Regarding identifying the bodies found on the bridge, the following is an excerpt from chapter 4.4.1 in the Rockwater survey report, available here: https://sok.riksarkivet.se/bildvisning/ES001310_00015#?cv=14&xywh=-3210,-1,8934,3498 (Registration needed).

My conclusions - identifying the bodies found on the bridge could have been challenging. (And as we know, that was not part of the mission for the dives.)

CONTENT WARNING - DISTURBING MATERIAL. I've put the text in a spoiler since the description is disturbing.

With the exception of the bodies found on the bridge and some of those found in the central stairwell on level 5, the bodies were intact and firm with the sex of the victim easily identifiable. The bodies on the bridge were more badly decomposed though were also intact. Some of the bodies on Deck 5 at the central stairwell were bloated and buoyant, the remainder were effectively neutral. Many of the bodies exhibited evidence of crush injuries.

(Any errors in the text are probably mine...)

 

[Vixen]

Oooh, I can answer this one.

See, between the time of the sinking and the underwater survey they interviewed the surviving passengers and crew. They knew there was water on the car deck. Then they get on site and they notice the bow of the Estonia looks funny on side-scan, and the ROV confirms the bow visor is gone. And then they use sonar to find the visor, and later raised it to the surface. So the cause was the BOW VISOR BEING KNOCKED OFF WRENCHING THE BOW RAMP OPEN, FLOODING THE SHIP (WITH WATER).

The bridge personnel do not matter. Their actions do.

Imagine you are driving along and you spot a wrecked vehicle off the road. The bonnet/hood is ripped off to one side. Question: Does this mean the ripping off of the bonnet was the CAUSE of the accident?

Take care not to mistake effect for cause.

As for flooding: several passengers housed in Deck One reported water rising from below. These eye witness accounts were disregarded. Some guy called Karppinen decided the passengers didn't see what they said they saw.

 

[Vixen]

And there are a couple of more reasons. If you have a blackout your primary radio gear might not work. And if you have a severe list your antenna is no longer sending the radio waves parallel to the surface as you need it to do to reach other ships or coastal stations. Being able to climb outside and bring a VHF handheld radio (not a phone...) can make a lot of sense.

Imagine if Tammes hadn't, at a remarkable 50° list? The vessel would have vanished off the radar with noone going to the rescue of the 137 survivors, so yes, Tammes went beyond the call of duty IMV.

 

[Vixen]

It's almost like the content doesn't matter and it's all about attention.

But of course it can't be that. Vixen is just really interested in the topic and I'm sure that she will notice and accept this correction.

So Vixen, how about it? Care to accept that Cheney was not involved in any way?

Read Dick Cheney's bio. He was mercilessly ambitious to the extent of even going to war to achieve personal wealth and power.

 

[JayUtah]

Imagine you are driving along and you spot a wrecked vehicle off the road. The bonnet/hood is ripped off to one side. Question: Does this mean the ripping off of the bonnet was the CAUSE of the accident?

What a stupid analogy. Cars are not ships.

Take care not to mistake effect for cause.

Indeed, it's best to leave such exercises to those who have the proper education and experience. That is not you.

As for flooding: several passengers housed in Deck One reported water rising from below. These eye witness accounts were disregarded. Some guy called Karppinen decided the passengers didn't see what they said they saw.

That's how water works in a downflooding ship. It seeks the lowest level, then as the ship fills it appears to be rising within the vessel. There's no reason to give such testimony any special regard because they're simply reporting what is consistent with the overall failure sequence. Take care not to mistake effect for cause.

Read Dick Cheney's bio. He was mercilessly ambitious to the extent of even going to war to achieve personal wealth and power.

That's not evidence that he did some particular thing that's being attributed to him.

Armchair detectives are worse than useless.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Imagine you are driving along and you spot a wrecked vehicle off the road. The bonnet/hood is ripped off to one side. Question: Does this mean the ripping off of the bonnet was the CAUSE of the accident?

Take care not to mistake effect for cause.

As for flooding: several passengers housed in Deck One reported water rising from below. These eye witness accounts were disregarded. Some guy called Karppinen decided the passengers didn't see what they said they saw.

water tends to follow gravity. Ships fill up from the bottom.
How else would it work?