Wow, UK has lost freedom of speech

[Hercules56]

...We've already been through this. You're free to say whatever you want. You're not free to engage in an anti-abortion protest.

As long as you follow the law, you should be.

We don't "wanna" do that after the women have suffered harassment, no. We "wanna" prevent them from being harassed in the first place.

And that is 100% impossible. You can only discourage it.

Also, physical is not the only kind of violence.

Whatever. Not gonna play that game here.

Edit: violence= "behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something."

So says the OED.

 

[theprestige]

You might notice Steve did not use the word prevent. He did however use the word reduce.

Hercules56's idea does nothing to prevent or reduce harassment. In fact it requires it before any action is taken.

Yeah, most crimes are like that: You have to actually commit them before you can be charged with them.

Curtailing people's freedoms before they've committed any crimes, on the basis that they might, is not something to be entered into lightly. Not even to protect the sensibilities of people seeking abortions of convenience.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, most crimes are like that: You have to actually commit them before you can be charged with them.

Curtailing people's freedoms before they've committed any crimes, on the basis that they might, is not something to be entered into lightly. Not even to protect the sensibilities of people seeking abortions of convenience.

Agreed. Not lightly, But in the case at hand the legal authorities have deemed it necessary. I have no reason, and no one in this thread has provided a reason, to believe they did not provide an appropriate level of thought to that decision. I think charging persons with crimes should be a last resort after making efforts to minimize the committing of crimes in the first place.

 

[arthwollipot]

Whatever. Not gonna play that game here.

Then I will. A simple Google search shows that violence and abuse does not have to be physical in nature.

Domestic Violence Is Physical, Mental, and More: 6 Examples

When discussing domestic violence, many people immediately think about physical abuse. But domestic violence can take many forms — not just physical.

www.healthline.com

4. Non-physical forms of violence

Section

www.aph.gov.au

Types of Abuse | Safe Steps Family Violence Response Centre

Family violence often involves multiple types of abuse. Learn about different examples of abusive behaviour and what to do if you are experiencing them.

safesteps.org.au

Forms of family violence | Safe and Equal

Learn about the many different forms family and gender-based violence can take; including, but not limited to, physical abuse.

safeandequal.org.au

Words Hurt - Non-Physical Abuse is Still Abuse - DGB Lawyers

“Sticks and stones will break my bones but words can never hurt me”. It’s an old and well-known saying, but is it really true? In reality, violence and

www.dgblaw.com.au

12 Types of Emotional Abuse That Aren't Physical Violence — The Therapy Group

Domestic violence can also be emotional & psychological, but is often minimized because it did not cause physical harm. Read on for 12 types of emotional abuse.

www.thetherapygroup.com

Types of domestic and family violence

The different types of domestic and family violence.

fullstop.org.au

Most of these are Australian because that's what Google defaults to for me. It also shows a lot of information about domestic violence because that's the situation that sees nonphysical forms of violence a lot. But it still applies.

 

[theprestige]

Then I will. A simple Google search shows that violence and abuse does not have to be physical in nature.

Domestic Violence Is Physical, Mental, and More: 6 Examples

When discussing domestic violence, many people immediately think about physical abuse. But domestic violence can take many forms — not just physical.

www.healthline.com

4. Non-physical forms of violence

Section

www.aph.gov.au

Types of Abuse | Safe Steps Family Violence Response Centre

Family violence often involves multiple types of abuse. Learn about different examples of abusive behaviour and what to do if you are experiencing them.

safesteps.org.au

Forms of family violence | Safe and Equal

Learn about the many different forms family and gender-based violence can take; including, but not limited to, physical abuse.

safeandequal.org.au

Words Hurt - Non-Physical Abuse is Still Abuse - DGB Lawyers

“Sticks and stones will break my bones but words can never hurt me”. It’s an old and well-known saying, but is it really true? In reality, violence and

www.dgblaw.com.au

12 Types of Emotional Abuse That Aren't Physical Violence — The Therapy Group

Domestic violence can also be emotional & psychological, but is often minimized because it did not cause physical harm. Read on for 12 types of emotional abuse.

www.thetherapygroup.com

Types of domestic and family violence

The different types of domestic and family violence.

fullstop.org.au

Most of these are Australian because that's what Google defaults to for me. It also shows a lot of information about domestic violence because that's the situation that sees nonphysical forms of violence a lot. But it still applies.

All of your cites are opinions, not facts. Why should we bow to your opinions?

 

[arthwollipot]

All of your cites are opinions, not facts. Why should we bow to your opinions?

Tell me you didn't click any of them without telling me you didn't click any of them.

You see, I sneaked in a report by the Australian Parliament (aph.gov.au). It's from the Parliamentary Inquiry into Family, Domestic, and Sexual Violence, and it has legal status. And it says, among other things, this:

 

[theprestige]

Tell me you didn't click any of them without telling me you didn't click any of them.

You see, I sneaked in a report by the Australian Parliament (aph.gov.au). It's from the Parliamentary Inquiry into Family, Domestic, and Sexual Violence, and it has legal status. And it says, among other things, this:

View attachment 64820

Legally binding opinions are still opinions.

You must know that a nation's laws are not always good laws.

Do you claim that the Australian parliament always and only is an infallible moral arbiter?

 

[arthwollipot]

Legally binding opinions are still opinions.

You must know that a nation's laws are not always good laws.

Do you claim that the Australian parliament always and only is an infallible moral arbiter?

Did I say that?

All I did was post evidence that I'm not the only person in the world who thinks that violence can be nonphysical. A wide range of domestic violence support services - and the Australian Government - do too. It's not a niche opinion.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Yeah, most crimes are like that: You have to actually commit them before you can be charged with them.

Curtailing people's freedoms before they've committed any crimes, on the basis that they might, is not something to be entered into lightly. Not even to protect the sensibilities of people seeking abortions of convenience.

True, but the anti abortion fanatics have proven themselves to be consistently unable to protest in a way that is peaceful.
At which point it is a consequence that they will be curtailed from protesting is certain locations.


In the same way extinction rebellion in the Netherlands is forbidden from protesting next to highways as they have proven to be unable to do so without disrupting traffic.

 

[Mojo]

Legally binding opinions are still opinions.

In a common law jurisdiction, legally binding opinions are the law.

 

[Helen]

Wrong.

Strong criminal penalties is a great disincentive to criminal activity.

Unless one is a masochist or suicidal.

No, they aren't. If that was even remotely true, crime would have been close to eradicated in most countries in this world.

Yeah, most crimes are like that: You have to actually commit them before you can be charged with them.

Curtailing people's freedoms before they've committed any crimes, on the basis that they might, is not something to be entered into lightly. Not even to protect the sensibilities of people seeking abortions of convenience.

Abortions of convenience. Say no more! Or do, I wouldn't want to be accused of robbing you of your free speech.

Exclusion zones seems an excellent way of avoiding the harassment before it happens, while still allowing people the right to free speech.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Have we reached the "What if someone protests by throwing a raspberry?" stage yet?

Or are we still at "throwing a melon"?

I mean, those would obviusly require different sized exclusion zones...

 

[Carrot Flower King]

No, they aren't. If that was even remotely true, crime would have been close to eradicated in most countries in this world.

Abortions of convenience. Say no more! Or do, I wouldn't want to be accused of robbing you of your free speech.

Exclusion zones seems an excellent way of avoiding the harassment before it happens, while still allowing people the right to free speech.

I wanted to give this one more "likes", mostly for pointing out the use of the word "convenience" and how it indicates that someone's slip is showing.

ETA I wonder how many other healthcare interventions, outside emergency treatment, would get that epithet, as most are elective to some extent...

 

[arthwollipot]

Oh, and I missed this:

And that is 100% impossible. You can only discourage it.

It is 100% possible to completely prevent it within 500' of abortion service providers, where it counts more than it does elsewhere. Only under your "free speech everywhere" regime is it 100% impossible to prevent.

 

[jeremyp]

Gross, but yes. As long as you follow existing law, including Endangering the Welfare of a Child, which is pretty broad.

The trouble is that the protestors in question have repeatedly demonstrated that they are incapable of following existing law.

 

[Matthew Best]

Pedantic nitpick: 150 metres is not 500 feet.

Yes, but 500 sounds bigger than 150 so that's the figure used if you want to make it seem more extreme.

 

[jeremyp]

15' allows voices to be heard but no physical violence to be done.

The women in the abortion clinic don't want to hear the voices. 150 metres (not 500 feet) seems a reasonable compromise.

 

[Darat]

Nobody is doing that, outside your imagination. Everyone here apart from you thinks that women, being people, are not all alike.

Women are people?

Well I never.

No, as we have all said multiple times:

1. We support the rights of women to not be harassed.

2. In the UK, abortion protesters couldn't stop harassing the women.

3. So the police had to create an exclusion zone.
It's pretty a straightforward valuing of rights, and the repetition has grown dull as dishwater.

Just to make that clear, the police administrate such areas but it was the legislative that created them, i.e. our elected MPs, if that legislation is in breach of our freedom of expression the courts would make that decision. I don't know if such challenge cases have been before the courts.

 

[theprestige]

Did I say that?

All I did was post evidence that I'm not the only person in the world who thinks that violence can be nonphysical. A wide range of domestic violence support services - and the Australian Government - do too. It's not a niche opinion.

It was never in doubt that others share your opinion. That wasn't the question.

 

[Steve]

Wrong.

Strong criminal penalties is a great disincentive to criminal activity.

Unless one is a masochist or suicidal.

And the criminal penalties are in place and being used (as you would know from the op ) . Criminal penalties that allow the authorities to act before any person is subject to harassment and abuse, thus supporting your (sometimes) stated opinion that this harassment and abuse should not happen. Criminal penalties that were put in place because, absent the restriction zone, the prior criminal penalties alone proved insufficient disincentive to prevent the harassment and abuse. So now strong criminal penalties are in place and largely working as intended, and as you want, and you are complaining about it .