Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[d4m10n]

It's actually quite hard to discriminate on the basis of gender identity but NOT sex

It's not all that hard, the U.S. military does it by simply disqualifying people based on the diagnosis which they needed to get for the sake of obtaining gender affirming treatment (e.g. cross-sex hormones).

 

[Rolfe]

The entire thing is a hot mess. You can't self-identify yourself into a medical condition.

I was reading this document, highlighted as one of the things that led to HR departments implementing self-ID as if it was the law, and noticed it got one thing right anyway.

 

[Matthew Best]

Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh’s would-be assassin now identifies as trans woman​

Defense attorneys revealed Friday that 29-year-old Nicholas John Roske, who pleaded guilty in April to attempting to kill Kavanaugh, will henceforth be referred to by her lawyers as “Sophie Roske.” The public defenders assigned to Roske’s case indicated in a court filing that they will refer to their client with female pronouns “out of respect,” though Roske has not filed to legally change it.

 

[Aber]

Not so much arguing that they should be--pointing out that the legal basis for sex-segregated bathrooms is thin.

And yet you seem to oppose making the legal basis clearer by "bathroom bills"?

 

[smartcooky]

"People say" and "one person reported" have routinely been dismissed when it's female humans being discriminated against, harassed, intimidated, our offended against.

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence"
- Christopher Hitchens

But here you're happy to accept something with no specific details, no supporting data, supplied by an ideologically motivated activist without any hesitation at all?

'Some demand strict proof for opinions they dislike, but are satisfied with mere hints for what they're inclined to accept.'
- John Henry Newman

 

[smartcooky]

It doesn't need to. Sexual discrimination is sexual discrimination, be it in housing or employment. They are covered by different statutes, but they are both covered. And what the Supreme Court has said about what constitutes sexual discrimination applies to both housing and employment. The key findings do not hinge upon whether the discrimination was in employment versus some other field, but whether discriminating against a transgender person based on them being transgender also constituted discriminating against them on the basis of sex. And it does. And that reasoning will apply to any field where sex discrimination is prohibited, including housing.

Held: An employer who fires an individual merely for being gay or transgender violates Title VII. Pp. 4–33.​

(a) Title VII makes it “unlawful . . . for an employer to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual . . . because of such individual’s race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.” ​

​

There is no escaping the role intent plays: Just as sex is necessarily a but-for cause when an employer discriminates against homosexual or transgender employees, an employer who discriminates on these grounds inescapably intends to rely on sex in its decisionmaking. Pp. 9–12.​

When an employer fires an employee for being homosexual or transgender, it necessarily intentionally discriminates against that individual in part because of sex.​

An employer who intentionally fires an individual homosexual or transgender employee in part because of that individual’s sex violates the law even if the employer is willing to subject all male and female homosexual or transgender employees to the same rule. Pp. 12–15.​

This is the tenor of the entire ruling. As I understand it, if someone discriminates in housing or employment, against a transgender identified male, or a transgender identified female, those would be sex discrimination based on their respective biological sex (male of female). Their claim to be transgender doesn't even come into it.

The Court Ruled 6-3 in favour of Bostock - Alito, Kavanagh and Thomas dissenting (what a surprise ).

You would understand this if you had read Bostock, but you haven't.

I even posted a link to both the ruling and a Wikipedia primer... so plenty of opportunity to read it not taken

 

[Rolfe]

Protect the Dolls.

"Protect the Dolls": The Porn to Trans Pipeline - Fairer Disputations

For many men who identify as women, nothing is more arousing and “gender affirming” than being treated as a sex doll. When trans activist Paris Lees was “catcalled, sexually objectified and treated like a piece of meat by men,” his response was very different from that of the average woman. To...

fairerdisputations.org

 

[Ziggurat]

It's not all that hard, the U.S. military does it by simply disqualifying people based on the diagnosis which they needed to get for the sake of obtaining gender affirming treatment (e.g. cross-sex hormones).

I didn't say impossible. But by law, most people don't have access to your medical records. Plus, the military is permitted to discriminate by sex.

 

[catsmate]

Transphobic assault in Renton. Demonising people has consequences.

Four people arrested in Washington after alleged hate crime attack on trans woman

Three teenagers and one adult arrested in Renton after an alleged attack left a 39-year-old woman hospitalized

www.theguardian.com

 

[smartcooky]

Transphobic assault in Renton. Demonising people has consequences.

Four people arrested in Washington after alleged hate crime attack on trans woman

Three teenagers and one adult arrested in Renton after an alleged attack left a 39-year-old woman hospitalized

www.theguardian.com

Meanwhile...

Thornaby transgender woman guilty of sexually assaulting man

Ciara Watkin lied about being a biological female when the pair had a sexual liaison, a court hears.

bbc.com

Trans woman Lexi Secker jailed for six years for rape

Lexi Secker attacked the female victim in the woods after a night out.

bbc.com

British tourist attacked by transgender group in Pattaya after refusing services

A 65-year-old British tourist was severely injured in a violent attack in Pattaya after refusing services from four transgender individuals and declining to pay a demanded fee.

www.thestandard.com.hk

Washington inmate accused of sexually assaulting cellmate after transfer to women's prison

The lawsuit filed Friday claims the inmate is biologically male and was originally placed in a men's prison.

komonews.com

 

[mumblethrax]

It doesn't need to. Sexual discrimination is sexual discrimination, be it in housing or employment. They are covered by different statutes, but they are both covered.

They aren't. The findings in Bostock do not require HUD to treat discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity as sex discrimination. You can take the court's reasoning from Bostock and presume they would rule similarly in a case involving the Fair Housing Act, but they haven't. Which means that the previous policy of presuming that FHA prohibited such discrimination was entirely down to Biden administration policies, which have since been rescinded.

You would understand this if you had read Bostock, but you haven't.

There is nothing at all in the Bostock decision to support this contention. The majority opinion rather explicitly rejects your reading:

"The briefs in these cases have called to our attention the potential effects that the Court’s reasoning may have under some of these laws [laws with similar language preventing sex discrimination], but the Court waves those considerations aside. As to Title VII itself, the Court dismisses questions about “bathrooms, locker rooms, or anything else of the kind.” Ante, at 31. And it declines to say anything about other statutes whose terms mirror Title VII’s."

So I'm afraid I don't think I'm the one who isn't sufficiently familiar with Bostock.

Your link doesn't indicate that any of this discrimination is legal under federal law. In fact, given that it's quite explicitly not legal under New York law, the primary point of your link seems to be that illegal discrimination happens despite being illegal. Which is absolutely true, but also completely irrelevant to the question we have been debating.

Emily's Cat asked me if it actually happens, so forgive me for answering her question, I guess. Yes, it happens, and no, it's not illegal under federal law.

 

[mumblethrax]

"People say" and "one person reported" have routinely been dismissed when it's female humans being discriminated against, harassed, intimidated, our offended against. But here you're happy to accept something with no specific details, no supporting data, supplied by an ideologically motivated activist without any hesitation at all?

Try reading the entire thing, particularly where NYC sends testers to establish that landlords suspected of discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity are actually doing so.

No, that's not my argument. My argument is that they are already protected from such blatant discrimination. Sex discrimination already disallows it.

That's just false.

 

[mumblethrax]

And yet you seem to oppose making the legal basis clearer by "bathroom bills"?

"Bathroom bills" don't make anything clearer--meaning, they do nothing to establish why sex-segregated bathrooms are normatively or positively permissible. They're also usually slapdash and politically driven, with no clear means of enforcement. And in the US they've all been passed at the state level, meaning they can't clarify federal law in any case, except by being challenged and adjudicated.

 

[Rolfe]

Evidence that people wanting men to stay out of women's single-sex spaces was responsible for that attack? Sounds like a pretty run-of-the mill evening in certain sectors of society to me.

 

[smartcooky]

Exclusive: LCPS investigates boys uncomfortable with female student in boys locker room

Loudoun schools opened a Title IX investigation into three high school boys who said they were uncomfortable with a female student using the boys’ locker room.

wjla.com

In March, after gym class, the female student (a transgender identified female) used her phone to record his son and his friends in the Stone Bridge High boys' locker room.​

​

According to LCPS’ own policy, video and audio recordings are prohibited in school locker rooms. But it’s his son, not the student who recorded the video, who is facing serious consequences because of that recording.​

The two boys were investigated, found guilty and suspended for 10 days, while the complainant was never investigated for the school policy violation. Also, while Virginia is a one-party consent for recording, there is an "interception" exception - you can only record a conversation if you are a participant. It illegal to record others having their own conversation that you are not party to. So, the transgender identified female also committed a criminal act.

Well, the parents of the boys were not going to stand for that - they took Loudoun County Public Schools to court...

Loudoun Co. schools ordered to pause suspension of students over locker room policy

A federal judge with the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia ordered Loudoun County Public Schools to pause the suspension and punishments

wjla.com

A federal judge with the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia ordered Loudoun County Public Schools to pause the suspension and punishments of students who complained that a female student was using the boys’ locker room at Stone Bridge High School.​

​

The court also found many of the allegations in the complaint to be troubling, particularly LCPS offering a private changing area to the boys but not to the female student accessing the male locker room and LCPS’s dismissal of the accusations against a Muslim student “who seems to have engaged in similar activity” to the two Christian boys who LCPS found responsible for Title IX sexual harassment and sex based discrimination.​

​

“One of the boys asked, ‘Hey, what can be done about this? We're not comfortable with a girl using a boy's locker room while we're changing after gym class,'” said Prior, a senior advisor with America First Legal. “And what did LCPS say? They said, ‘Well, you can use a private changing area.’ They didn't say that to the girl. So that's another equal protection problem.”​

It seems the parents are going to drive this to the end, and try to get the Federal court to force the district to change their policies.

 

[Aber]

"Bathroom bills" don't make anything clearer--meaning, they do nothing to establish why sex-segregated bathrooms are normatively or positively permissible.

What would you like to see done?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I was reading this document, highlighted as one of the things that led to HR departments implementing self-ID as if it was the law, and noticed it got one thing right anyway.

View attachment 64048

Close perhaps, but it's still essentially claiming that people with DSDs are something in-between male and female.

 

[theprestige]

"Bathroom bills" don't make anything clearer--meaning, they do nothing to establish why sex-segregated bathrooms are normatively or positively permissible.

These things are already established.

 

[Ziggurat]

WTF is going in in Loudoun County schools? This is the same county that had a male student in a skirt who sexually assaulted a girl in the girl's bathroom back in 2021. And then the school tried to cover it up, transferred the student, and then let him sexually assault another girl. Is it something in the water?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Protect the Dolls.

"Protect the Dolls": The Porn to Trans Pipeline - Fairer Disputations

For many men who identify as women, nothing is more arousing and “gender affirming” than being treated as a sex doll. When trans activist Paris Lees was “catcalled, sexually objectified and treated like a piece of meat by men,” his response was very different from that of the average woman. To...

fairerdisputations.org

Yes, yes, protect the fake objects used for sexual titillation...

Even off porn platforms, Instagram, YouTube and TikTok host innumerable films and reels with titles like “You’re Becoming My Perfect Sissy Doll — Sissy Hypnosis & Feminization ASMR” and “Dollification Hypnosis: Becoming a Mindless, Obedient Doll.” In these immersive fantasies, male listeners are infantilized and feminized through make-up and clothes. The climactic end point is to become a sex object.