Rolfe
Adult human female
The entire thing is a hot mess. You can't self-identify yourself into a medical condition.
Transwomen are not Women - Part 15
- Thread starter d4m10n
- Start date
The entire thing is a hot mess. You can't self-identify yourself into a medical condition.
Rolfe
Adult human female
This is just so true.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
So the violence they're talking about is because they are gay and has nothing to do with their status as intersex, if I'm reading that right.To the surprise of no-one who's been paying attention to events, there has been a major rise is violence towards trans and intersex people.
Intersex people in Europe face ‘alarming’ rise in violence, EU finds
Increase in violence since 2019 is linked to online campaigns seeking to sow disinformation and fuel hatredwww.theguardian.com
Obviously that doesn't mean I'm condoning the violence they say they are experiencing, but it's got nothing to do with animus towards them because of their DSD.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 61,787
Challenge accepted, apparently.
Matthew Best
Penultimate Amazing
Sex tests brought in after data showed 50-60 DSD athletes in finals, World Athletics says
In total between 2000 and 2023, there had been 135 DSD finalists in elite international events. DSD cases are 151.9 times more likely than would be expected given the number of DSD individuals in the general population.
Rolfe
Adult human female
This might be more appropriate for the thread specifically about DSDs, but basically, good.
I might feel sorry for these people, if I didn't think it is absolutely blindingly obvious when someone goes through male puberty in their mid-teens, even if they were baptised Margaret and "brought up as a girl". It must be very difficult to cope with this if one has genuinely believed one was a girl all through childhod. See Erik Schinneger for example. (Although nowadays I think Erik would have been diagnosed a lot earlier. There was a lot of comment and whispering about him, it was just that in the 1960s these things simply weren't recognised.)
However, what they need is to be diagnosed as early as possible, and given psychological counselling to choose their preferred path from then on. Continue with a female identity if you want, but say goodbye to any plans to make athletics your career, or indeed a competitive hobby. Or take on board that you are in fact male and learn, as Erik did, to navigate the world as a man. (And it is my suspicion that the latter course will generally lead to greater happiness.) What they do not need is to be coached in how to declare emphatically that they're real women and be hurt and offended any time they come up against sports rules that might exclude them or impose special conditions, and go on living a lie for medals and money. Which is what has been happening.
mumblethrax
Species traitor
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2004
- Messages
- 5,021
That's just obviously wrong. "I'll rent to a man, I'll rent to a woman, I won't rent to no transes" is discrimination on the basis of gender identity, but not (on the current understanding) on the basis of sex.
And this is perfectly legal in most of the US right now.
You can anticipate that there will eventually be a Bostock-like ruling on the Fair Housing Act, but it hasn't happened yet, and might not ever happen. And even then this would leave people out in the cold with respect to public accommodations (not including women-only spaces).
This is just an unacceptably unstable situation to put people in. Whether or not you can be discriminated against due to gender identity should not be contingent upon which party happens to hold the White House in any given year.
Last edited:
mumblethrax
Species traitor
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2004
- Messages
- 5,021
Not so much arguing that they should be--pointing out that the legal basis for sex-segregated bathrooms is thin.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
The piece starts out so Orwellian that I can't even get past the introduction. Intersex is not an umbrella term that includes genderfluid and genderqueer expressions.To the surprise of no-one who's been paying attention to events, there has been a major rise is violence towards trans and intersex people.
Intersex people in Europe face ‘alarming’ rise in violence, EU finds
Increase in violence since 2019 is linked to online campaigns seeking to sow disinformation and fuel hatred
Indeed, even when used correctly (which this insane article does not do), it's still a misleading term. Just like "sex assigned at birth" doesn't literally mean that the doctor decides what sex you will be, "intersex" doesn't mean some kind of intermediate or mixed or "third" sex. Sex is binary, and its failure modes are binary. There is not a developmental sex disorder that results in an intermediate biological sex.
With an opening that bad, I can't imagine the rest of the article is accurate or honest about anything else it's trying to report.
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
In practice it looks like a lot of respondents flatly ignored the biological definition provided, and self-ID'd as "intersex" based on vibes instead. (It also supports my hypothesis that a lot of people who identify as bisexual are performative idiots.)
I wouldn't be surprised if the survey was similarly absurd in its definition and measurement of "violence".
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
But exactly as likely as would be expected, given the extreme competitiveness of elite sporting events, and the significant competitive advantages to having a male physique.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 61,787
You obviously haven't actually read the Bostock decision. Because that's precisely the sort of discrimination which happened, and that's precisely what the decision said still violates sex discrimination. Why? Because to discriminate against someone who is trans, you basically have to discriminate against them for behavior which you would accept if they were a different sex. Which makes it sex discrimination. Which is illegal in employment, and illegal in housing.
But not in bathroom segregation or sports.
It isn't. Bostock was decided during Trump's presidency.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
As soon as you see someone using the term "intersex" as a synonym for "transgender", you know you are dealing with one of two types of people.
1. Someone who has absolutely no ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ idea what they are talking about, or
2. Someone who has an agenda to intentionally deny the objective reality of scientific and biological truth by using intersex to claim sex is not binary.
Correct.
Intersex is not even a valid medical term any more. The correct term is DSD (Disorders of Sexual Development)
Intersex ≠ Transgender
Indeed. This sort of junk statistical polling can be dismissed out of hand, as can anyone who holds up this sort of bollocks as evidence of anything.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
Can you show that this is actually happening?
Because as far as I can tell "I'll rent to a female, I'll rent to a male" is pretty much the end of it. Anything more than that is window dressing, and someone saying "I'll rent to a male, but only if said male always wears trousers and has short hair; if said male wears dresses and make-up I won't rent to them" would be blatant discrimination.
mumblethrax
Species traitor
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2004
- Messages
- 5,021
You obviously haven't, because is has nothing to do with housing.
Which is irrelevant, because Bostock has nothing to do with housing.
Bostock is only concerned with Title VII employment discrimination.
Biden instructed HUD to treat housing discrimination that turns on gender identity as impermissible under the Fair Housing Act, but there is currently no basis in law for this. And Trump rescinded the executive order that set this policy.
Last edited:
mumblethrax
Species traitor
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2004
- Messages
- 5,021
Yes.
https://a860-gpp.nyc.gov/downloads/1544bp60n?locale=en (PDF Link)
So your argument is that this can't be happening because if it were it would be blatant discrimination?
Well, you're close to a crucial realization, here.
Last edited:
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Posting this for the benefit of @mumblethrax
Here's the decision (PDF Format): https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/17-1618_hfci.pdf
Here's a link to the Wikipedia article explaining it in layman's terms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bostock_v._Clayton_County
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 61,787
It doesn't need to. Sexual discrimination is sexual discrimination, be it in housing or employment. They are covered by different statutes, but they are both covered. And what the Supreme Court has said about what constitutes sexual discrimination applies to both housing and employment. The key findings do not hinge upon whether the discrimination was in employment versus some other field, but whether discriminating against a transgender person based on them being transgender also constituted discriminating against them on the basis of sex. And it does. And that reasoning will apply to any field where sex discrimination is prohibited, including housing.
You would understand this if you had read Bostock, but you haven't.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2003
- Messages
- 61,787
Your link doesn't indicate that any of this discrimination is legal under federal law. In fact, given that it's quite explicitly not legal under New York law, the primary point of your link seems to be that illegal discrimination happens despite being illegal. Which is absolutely true, but also completely irrelevant to the question we have been debating.
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
"People say" and "one person reported" have routinely been dismissed when it's female humans being discriminated against, harassed, intimidated, our offended against. But here you're happy to accept something with no specific details, no supporting data, supplied by an ideologically motivated activist without any hesitation at all?
No, that's not my argument. My argument is that they are already protected from such blatant discrimination. Sex discrimination already disallows it.