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The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

Vixen said:
From: New York Times


The Soviet Union is marketing an array of secretive items from its space program -- things that no spies or reconnaissance satellites could have pried loose during the cold war -- and the United States is so interested that it is sending teams of bargain hunters to look at the merchandise.

Items on the block include nuclear reactors, satellites, rocket engines, space stations, plutonium for compact power sources and a host of scientific reports on space testing and experiments. The goods are seen as the cream of the Soviet industrial complex and in some cases are considered better than similar items in the West.

"Nobody ever contemplated that the Soviet military-industrial complex would end up in Chapter 11," said Russell Seitz, an associate at the Olin Center for Strategic Studies at Harvard University who monitors the Soviet activity. "It's the yard sale at the end of history." Some Are Resisting

This is a digitized version of an article from The Times’s print archive, before the start of online publication in 1996. To preserve these articles as they originally appeared, The Times does not alter, edit or update them.
Occasionally the digitization process introduces transcription errors or other problems; we are continuing to work to improve these archived versions.
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And again, what does that have to do with Russian software which is what you were referring to?
 
With my highlighting...
Vixen said:
Software technology , silly. As can be carried in an attaché case.
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JayUtah said:
Russian software to do what, exactly? Please be specific.
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Vixen said:
Henriksson said. "We opened a few boxes and as far as I could see it was military electronics in them.
[....]
That is, electronics, not hardware weapons.
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zooterkin said:
Which has what to do with Russian software, which is what you were referring to?
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Vixen said:
From: New York Times
[....]
Items on the block include nuclear reactors, satellites, rocket engines, space stations, plutonium for compact power sources and a host of scientific reports on space testing and experiments. The goods are seen as the cream of the Soviet industrial complex and in some cases are considered better than similar items in the West.
[....]
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@Vixen is clearly unable to distinguish software from hardware. Perhaps this will help:

When you get mad at hardware, and punch it in the mouth, you hurt your hand.

When you get mad at software, and punch it in the mouth, you miss.​
 
Vixen said:
Unfortunately, no-one has ever been prosecuted or charged.
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Those most directly responsible, and who would be the most likely potential witnesses regarding unsafe policies, corner cutting, or other misconduct by their higher-ups, drowned. Apologizing for those who became victims of their own negligence and for those who may be "proud" of having escaped accountability for hundreds of counts of manslaughter, by trying to shift the blame to spies or saboteurs, is just ugly behavior. It also does absolutely nothing to rectify the situation of no one ever being charged, unless you think it's better to prosecute innocent people than to prosecute no one.
 
W.D.Clinger said:
With my highlighting...





@Vixen is clearly unable to distinguish software from hardware. Perhaps this will help:

When you get mad at hardware, and punch it in the mouth, you hurt your hand.

When you get mad at software, and punch it in the mouth, you miss.​
Click to expand...
These few quotes are a microcosm of all the Estonia threads. Nailing jello to a wall. To this day nobody has figured out if Vixen has an actual point that she is prepared to properly defend.
 
Vixen said:
From: New York Times


The Soviet Union is marketing an array of secretive items from its space program -- things that no spies or reconnaissance satellites could have pried loose during the cold war -- and the United States is so interested that it is sending teams of bargain hunters to look at the merchandise.

Items on the block include nuclear reactors, satellites, rocket engines, space stations, plutonium for compact power sources and a host of scientific reports on space testing and experiments. The goods are seen as the cream of the Soviet industrial complex and in some cases are considered better than similar items in the West.

"Nobody ever contemplated that the Soviet military-industrial complex would end up in Chapter 11," said Russell Seitz, an associate at the Olin Center for Strategic Studies at Harvard University who monitors the Soviet activity. "It's the yard sale at the end of history." Some Are Resisting

This is a digitized version of an article from The Times’s print archive, before the start of online publication in 1996. To preserve these articles as they originally appeared, The Times does not alter, edit or update them.
Occasionally the digitization process introduces transcription errors or other problems; we are continuing to work to improve these archived versions.
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This is about stuff being openly sold.
 
zooterkin said:
And again, what does that have to do with Russian software which is what you were referring to?
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My secret sources tell me it was "Monty Goes To The Gulag", a C30 tape of epicness in which the eponymous (and unlicensed) mole has to escape said prison camp while collecting twenty pieces of a nuclear weapon to sell to the Americans, thus setting up the sequel, "Monty Becomes An Oligarch" (working title) in which he buys a state owned asset with the money. British Intelligence was desperate to get a copy due to it's innovative techniques for overcoming colour clash, it was hoped that these could be reverse engineered allowing the British computer industry a second renaissance in which we'd sweep away that horrible foreign, beige PC junk with a wave of rubber keyed British loveliness.
 
P.J. Denyer said:
My secret sources tell me it was "Monty Goes To The Gulag", a C30 tape of epicness in which the eponymous (and unlicensed) mole has to escape said prison camp while collecting twenty pieces of a nuclear weapon to sell to the Americans, thus setting up the sequel, "Monty Becomes An Oligarch" (working title) in which he buys a state owned asset with the money. British Intelligence was desperate to get a copy due to it's innovative techniques for overcoming colour clash, it was hoped that these could be reverse engineered allowing the British computer industry a second renaissance in which we'd sweep away that horrible foreign, beige PC junk with a wave of rubber keyed British loveliness.
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Is it impressive or pathetic that I genuinely get that? Well played. A very deep cut indeed.
 
Vixen said:
Given Meister was head of the JAIC and had access to all of the documents, interviews, classified stuff, confidential stuff, videos and discussions, he can hardly be written off as a conspiracy theorist, no matter how you spin it.
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He left the JAIC in a snip accusing Swedish authorities of a cover up.
The very definition of a conspiracy theory.
 
Vixen said:
It was a secret dive. Nobody knew that a piece of metal from the bow had been cut off during the dive until they later revealed it. Their aim was to publicise it the whole thing.
It is only public because they made it so!
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You seem to think that public things are actually secret things and you think this is a logical consequence of public things only being public things because someone made them public things. That seems to be the sensible straight reading of what you're trying to say. But it's all very strange. Whatever you're getting at and whatever your logic is, this attempt to redefine the word "secret" is definitely an interesting? or unique? form of argument. Carry on.
 
Vixen said:
The wreck is in international waters, The coast guards only have jurisdiction over International treaties. Germany is not a signatory, .
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Again, you are wrong. You ignore basic real-world events such as this:

www.euronews.com

Filmmakers fined for exploring wreck of 1994 ferry disaster

The shipwreck in the Baltic Sea is considered a graveyard for victims.
www.euronews.com www.euronews.com

Director Henrik Evertsson and analyst Linus Andersson were arrested in September 2019 after using a remote-controlled diving robot to film the shipwreck.

On Monday, a Gothenburg court convicted them of "breaching the peace of the grave" and handed them fines of 22,400 Swedish Krona (€2,088) and 18,800 Swedish Krona (€1,752).
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Most important:

The two documentary makers were originally acquitted of violating Swedish law, as they had used a foreign German-flagged vessel to film the site. But an appeals court later ruled that they should face a second trial.

The men were spared prison sentences because of their motives for exploring the wreck, the Gothenburg court said in a statement.

"There is a strong public interest in maintaining the peace of burial around the MS Estonia, which is the burial place of a large number of people," said presiding judge Göran Lundahl.

"The protection of the peace of the grave outweighs the interest in the protection of freedom of expression and information."
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Seems like they could have gone to jail had the prosecution pressed the issue.
 
JesseCuster said:
You seem to think that public things are actually secret things and you think this is a logical consequence of public things only being public things because someone made them public things. That seems to be the sensible straight reading of what you're trying to say. But it's all very strange. Whatever you're getting at and whatever your logic is, this attempt to redefine the word "secret" is definitely an interesting? or unique? form of argument. Carry on.
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The simple claim that Vixen needs to keep in play, but cannot bring herself to step up and actually make, is that a diving boat somehow went out to the wreck without anybody knowing about it who might have made a record of it.

It doesn't matter if German divers could go legally, or if the Swedish coastguard had jurisdiction, or if the authorities knew what the dive was for. What matters is that somebody could make a dive at the wreck without there ever being any record of its having happened (because there is in fact no such dive on record, yet Vixen prefers to imagine that it happened, anyway), whether because responsible authorities were somehow unaware of the dive (which raises the question of how Vixen is aware of it), or because they knew about it, but chose not to record it for some reason (which still raises the same question). Nothing Vixen is throwing out there makes that proposition seem plausible.
 
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