The sinking of MS Estonia: Case Reopened Part VII

[Andy_Ross]

Your thesis is that it is enough to spot a boat over the Estonia to know that it is not a secret dive. No, the secrecy comes from what they are doing around the wreckage. That is the secret part.

It's not a 'boat' a dive support vessel is a substantial thing.

You don't dive to those depths with just hobby scuba gear.
You don't dive to those depths to look for starfish and crabs.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Not knowing who they are -other than papers to show they are from Germany - or what they are doing in their dive is as good as a secret dive. So you have a name. How does that help you?

So you are changing your story and shifting your goalposts.

It wasn't a secret dive now.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The ONLY way you can turn up to do a dive is under a German flag in a German boat setting off from Germany, the nearest non-Treaty country. As it is not an OFFICIAL dive with a set PROJECT with aims, and detailed steps of why, how and where and what you hope to find it becomes an UNKNOWN, SECRET dive as far as the authorities are concerned. If you come from any of the other eight countries, you'll be chased out of the area WITHOUT ANY DIVE AT ALL. So, yes, those turning up under a German flag are secret unknown dives and nobody knows what they get up to around the wreckage. As I was saying to Axxman. But never mind.

Why do you think they won't chase a dive support vessel away if it flies a German flag?

Do you think that makes it exempt from official action by the authorities with jurisdiction over the wreck?

Why would the company that owns the dive support ship and it's captain agree to such a dive if they know it is on to a grave site?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Oh right, so you as a coastguard see a dot on the horizon. Some guy claiming to be German. So you think you know all about his dive, what he did, where he went, and what he found.

WHy do you think it would be a 'dot on the horizon'?

Do you know what dive support ships look like and how big hey are?

We aren't talking about some local scuba club or one of those holiday dive boats.

 

[Vixen]

And the country with jurisdiction would come alongside and ask wheat you were doing on a restricted grave site?

Do you think a German flag on your ship would make you immune?

The wreck is in international waters, The coast guards only have jurisdiction over International treaties. Germany is not a signatory, .

 

[Vixen]

I thought the Germans were allowed to dive? Otherwise the Finnish or Swedish coastguard would stop them? But you're saying that the coastguard just ignores any dive vessels flying a German flag. So clearly the Germans have permission to be there, because they didn't sign the treaty. You're really tying yourself in knots here, aren't you?

It is the boat that is the salient point.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Especially as, I suspect, a dive ship has a recognisabley different (from other ships) superstructure. Oh, where's @JayUtah when you need him, he'd know.

 

[Vixen]

Everyone seems to be missing the point that ALL unauthorised diving or ROV usage around the wreck of the Estonia is now a criminal act. The wreck is officially designated a protected marine grave site, and it is strictly prohibited for anyone - of any nationality - to conduct unauthoraised dive surveys. The German-flagged dives were illegal acts, with repercussions.

Swedish court finds MS Estonia filmmakers guilty of violating burial site

Gothenburg District Court in Sweden has found two documentary filmmakers guilty of violating a burial site in filming the wreck of the MS Estonia in 2019. The MS Estonia sank in the Baltic Sea in 1994, killing 852.

news.err.ee

They can only arrest Rabe if she goes to Sweden because it is a Treaty, not an extraditable crime. They are international waters.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The wreck is in international waters, The coast guards only have jurisdiction over International treaties. Germany is not a signatory, .

Is that why those that are known to have dived are being prosecuted?

 

[Mojo]

WHy do you think it would be a 'dot on the horizon'?

"These are far away, but the ones outside are small."

 

[Vixen]

Is that why those that are known to have dived are being prosecuted?

Evertsson is Swedish, that is why he was charged. His cameraman, Linus Anderson, iirc, lives in Finland and hasn't been charged AFAIK.

 

[Mojo]

The wreck is in international waters, The coast guards only have jurisdiction over International treaties. Germany is not a signatory, .

But it still wouldn't make it secret.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If there had been some sooper seekrit dive on the wreck, what are we to imagine it was for?

Are we to suppose it was the Russians? The CIA? The Israelis? Microsoft? James Cameron?

 

[Mojo]

If there had been some sooper seekrit dive on the wreck, what are we to imagine it was for?

Are we to suppose it was the Russians? The CIA? The Israelis? Microsoft? James Cameron?

Lizards.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Evertsson is Swedish, that is why he was charged. His cameraman, Linus Anderson, iirc, lives in Finland and hasn't been charged AFAIK.

but you said if they were on a boat with a German flag they would be OK.

 

[Vixen]

Russian software to do what, exactly? Please be specific.

From an article: (Nota Bene, Henriksson is the customs man wo blew the whistle on the smuggling, which Hirschfeldt confirmed.)

When the ferry arrived on Sept. 14, 1994, Henriksson spoke to the driver of the expected vehicle, a Volvo 745 station wagon driven by a Frank Larsson, a false identity. When Henriksson told "Larsson" that customs was carrying out inspections, he "gave me a look, but I said the search would be faked,"



Henriksson said. "We opened a few boxes and as far as I could see it was military electronics in them." The customs slip showed the car belonging to a non-existent company called Ericsson Access AB, a fictitious subsidiary of AB LM Ericsson Finance. No address was given. Henriksson discovered later that the vehicle was a rental car. There is no evidence that Ericsson was actually involved in the smuggling. Although the Swedish military authorized the smuggling, the final destination of the Soviet technology is not known.



A week later, on September 20, 1994, a much larger shipment of contraband technology arrived and was allowed to pass without inspection. This time it was a van and, once again, Henriksson merely glanced into the boxes. "What were you thinking this second time?" reporter Lars Borgnäs asked. "I thought it was a strange procedure," Henriksson said. "But orders are orders and you don't reflect too much on why."


https://citizens-lives-destroyed-swedish-authorities8.webnode.page/estonia-disaster/
That is, electronics, not hardware weapons.

 

[Vixen]

but you said if they were on a boat with a German flag they would be OK.

They were OK to dive. The coastguards could not stop them. The prosecution came years later.

 

[dorricc0]

This is why, if you don't follow a post or understand the logic, instead of calling that person names, just ask for clarification instead of assuming the other person is a wrongdoer and loudly proclaiming it.

You mean instead of calling someone 'silly', like you did a few posts ago?

 

[Myriad]

What is being disputed here is the cause of the accident. Now, the JAIC assumed an intact hull, so it had to hypothesize a scenario where a huge ingress of water managed to breach the superstructure. i.e., it put forward an explanation that windows on Deck 4 must have smashed and that is how. This is because even with >2,000 tonnes <6,000 tonnes of water filling the car deck, even the JAIC realised that would not be enough to make it sink, with out it turning upside down first. However, it does work if as is argued, there was a breach in the hull. We know now there is a massive 22m gap in the hull. The explanation now is that this breach in the hull happened more recently due to the vessel turning 12° onto a 'rocky outcrop' and not because it was already there causing it to sink the way it did.

You want to excuse the cause of the accident. That cause was the many layers of misconduct and negligence that resulted in hundreds and hundreds of horrific deaths. It's cute when a toddler tries to blame ninjas for a broken vase after attempting indoor batting practice, but not as cute when an adult tries to blame spies, saboteurs, submarines, smugglers, and shadowy assassins for the entirely predictable results of criminally irresponsible risk-taking at sea.

 

[zooterkin]

From an article: (Nota Bene, Henriksson is the customs man wo blew the whistle on the smuggling, which Hirschfeldt confirmed.)

When the ferry arrived on Sept. 14, 1994, Henriksson spoke to the driver of the expected vehicle, a Volvo 745 station wagon driven by a Frank Larsson, a false identity. When Henriksson told "Larsson" that customs was carrying out inspections, he "gave me a look, but I said the search would be faked,"



Henriksson said. "We opened a few boxes and as far as I could see it was military electronics in them." The customs slip showed the car belonging to a non-existent company called Ericsson Access AB, a fictitious subsidiary of AB LM Ericsson Finance. No address was given. Henriksson discovered later that the vehicle was a rental car. There is no evidence that Ericsson was actually involved in the smuggling. Although the Swedish military authorized the smuggling, the final destination of the Soviet technology is not known.



A week later, on September 20, 1994, a much larger shipment of contraband technology arrived and was allowed to pass without inspection. This time it was a van and, once again, Henriksson merely glanced into the boxes. "What were you thinking this second time?" reporter Lars Borgnäs asked. "I thought it was a strange procedure," Henriksson said. "But orders are orders and you don't reflect too much on why."


https://citizens-lives-destroyed-swedish-authorities8.webnode.page/estonia-disaster/
That is, electronics, not hardware weapons.

Which has what to do with Russian software, which is what you were referring to?