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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 32

Part of the issues here is the confusion of the use of English or American legal elements terminology crimes that are in some cases under Italian law defined differently in their elements and in their terminology.

For example, "breaking and entering" in US law may be a term (previously) used for the more current term "burglary". The current term burglary or "breaking and entering" is a crime that consists of any entry into a building, day or night, without permission, and with the intention to commit a crime while inside. The entry does not necessarily need to be “forced” to be considered criminal.*

In Italian law there are several laws relating to burglary and illegal or unauthorized entry. The elements of these laws may differ in Italy from those in the US. There's also a translation issue: for example, the Italian "furto" translates to "theft", "robbery", "burglary", and "break-in", among other related terms.** Google Translate typically translates "furto" to "theft", but in a short Italian news article containing that word, it is difficult to be sure whether the appropriate translation is "theft" or "burglary". Of course, in some cases it may make no difference, but a burglar who enters residences may be more dangerous to people.

In fact, there is a specific Italian criminal law against the entry of a dwelling: CP Article 3614***:

However, in Italian criminal law, the term "furto" alone is used specifically for crimes of theft:****

But there is another use of "furto" in conjuction with entry into a building:****

* https://legaldictionary.net/breaking-and-entering
** https://context.reverso.net/translation/italian-english/furto
*** https://www.altalex.com/documents/news/2014/10/28/dei-delitti-contro-la-persona
**** https://www.altalex.com/documents/news/2014/10/22/dei-delitti-contro-il-patrimonio
Pardon my typo. The law against unauthorized entry into a dwelling is CP Article 614, as stated in the Google Translation English text.

I had searched for an Italian criminal law defining "burglary in a building not used as a dwelling" and it seems to be contained in CP Article 625, Aggravating Circumstances (applicable to CP Article 624-bis), in paragraph 7:

Art. 625. Aggravating circumstances.

The penalty for the act provided for in Article 624 is imprisonment from two to six years and a fine from 927 to 1,500 euros ....

7. if the act [of theft inside a building] is committed on things existing in public offices or establishments, or subject to seizure or attachment, or exposed by necessity or custom or by destination to public faith, or intended for public service or public utility, defense or reverence;....

If two or more of the circumstances provided for in the preceding numbers concur, or if one of these circumstances concurs with another of those indicated in Article 61, the penalty is imprisonment from three to ten years and a fine from 206 to 1,549 euros.
Source: https://www.altalex.com/documents/news/2014/10/22/dei-delitti-contro-il-patrimonio
Google Translation.
 
Everyone here knows this case well so your claim our position is a result of our "kneejerk feelings" is laughably wrong.

The irony of you claiming the bolded when it's YOU who ignores scientific empirical objective facts and denis:
1) The negative TMB tests prove the luminol revealed prints were NOT in blood,
2) The negative hair tests prove the pair were NOT using narcotics,
3) Kercher's alleged DNA on the knife is not scientifically supported,
4) Only bleach could remove all traces of blood on the knife and would destroy any DNA,
5) Sollecito's DNA on the bra hook is likely contamination due to several egregious anti-contamination protocol violations,
et al.

"MAGA-style prejudice based on 'gut feelings'". Stop with this pathetic attempt to connect us to MAGA. You know damn well from the other ISF thread that I cannot abide that POS and his MAGA cultists and I've seen no PIP member here even mention Trump or his cult.
Ironic that you accuse us of "gut feelings" when it was officer Armando Finzi who selected the knife from the cutlery drawer based on his "investigator's instinct" because it was so clean. It was Mignini whose knee jerk reaction assumed the motive was 'satanic', the break-in was fake, that only a woman would cover the body, and that it was an "inside job".

Marasca CLEARS AK and RS of theft of the phones.

Marasca CLEARS AK and RS of theft of cash and cards from Meredith's bag

It doesn't matter whether YOU agree with this. This a fact of the matter, and not dependent on opinion or gut feelings.

So, it's not factual that Guede was caught with stolen items from the law office and with a large knife stolen from the school kitchen? He wasn't caught with a woman's gold watch that he had no plausible means to obtain except by theft? He wasn't caught burglarizing Tramontano's apartment? His friends didn't claim he stole things from girls' purses?

Who said he was a "drug smuggler"? Or is that yet another of your exaggerated claims?

Stop with the "MAGA" nonsense unless you'd like to have your own MAGA-style nonsense pointed out.
Marasca did not clear them. The verdict was 'insufficient evidence'. As for drugs, AK and RS themselves have confessed to extensive drug use. On the night of the murder they themselves claim they were doped up to the eyeballs. I don't believe the tests you claim were carried out can have been very accurate if they can't even identify marijuana and associated THC, together whatever additional stuff it is often mixed with.
 
Don' t try and gaslight us. "... as per MAGA stereotypes, beloved of the PIP," is an obvious attempt at connecting us, the PIP, to MAGA nonsense. It isn't working so stop embarrassing yourself.


It doesn't matter whether he "broke in" or not. The fact remains that he entered the school without permission, helped himself to food, spent the night there illegally, stole a 16" kitchen knife, and had other stolen items in his possession.


No, Guede claimed he paid 50 euros to a "South American" man he met at the train station:


At the very least he illegally trespassed and stole the kitchen knife which is burglary.

He would have been convicted if the Milan police had been able to charge him instead of being told to let him go. He was caught red-handed.

He didn't need to as Brocchi testified it wasn't turned on that night:



A "low balcony" that was "3 (9'10") to 4 (13'1") meters" off the ground according to testimony.


Burglars will use whatever entrance means they can depending on ease of access and ease of escape. By throwing the rock through the window from the parking parapet, he had an easy escape right up the driveway. Once the window was broken providing an access, why go around to the other side and have to break-in there? I took this photo from the parking garage across the street:

View attachment 61880

It was verified by his girlfriend who was also present when Guede broke in. Let me guess...she is also 'bent' and was only trying to help him out just like Altieri and Popovic were trying to help out two people they didn't know at all or barely knew by lying to the police.

He tried to report it but the lines at the police station were too long.


It is a FACT that Guede was a burglar, or do you think that nursery school knife jumped into his backpack all by itself?
What a coincidence that he just happened to run into the same guy in the MILAN train station who ripped off the law office in PERUGIA (over 220 miles away and a train ride of 3.5 hours plus) and bought the stolen laptop and phone from him.

It is not "pure conjecture" that Tramontano and his girlfriend went to the police and identified Guede as the man who broke into their apartment.

His current charges are not just for Domestic Violence as he is also charged with repeated rape.

The Marasca SC...the final word in the murder case... found many of the early 'court findings' to be wrong as detailed in their MR.
It is conjecture as Guede was never made a suspect re Tramontano's claims, it was never corroborated nor tested in a court of law. Tramontano claimed he didn't even have the patience to report it at the Questura, claiming the queue was too long. It is not a fact Guede was a burglar, as he had no burglary convictions. Being in possession of stolen goods is a quite different criminal offence from burglary and breaking and entering. You don't really understand law. Your saying someone is a burglar doesn't make it so. The guys who produced the Netflix film claimed Guede was a prolific burglar based on zero verified evidence. IOW it was just a lie designed to mislead the viewer. As Micheli confirms in the MR, Guede had a clean record apart from the pending Milan nursery case, which rejected breaking and entering. I am not sure you understand law. Being charged with DV and alleged rape by his former girlfriend, who says she had no idea he was a convicted murderer, really has no bearing at all on the guilt or innocence of AK and RS in the 2007 case. Looking at RS, AK and RG all three had difficult backgrounds. AK single-parent working class, RG and RS middle class backgrounds but with hidden tragedy, yet Burleigh solely focussing heavily on RG being a poor immigrant, a supposed 'drifter' - when he had his own bedsit and did work - was a very clever piece of heavy MAGA-style appealing to people's prejudices. No doubt were Guede Mexican, Burleigh would be hinting heavily that he was undocumented and unskilled, as well as a criminal rapist invading 'our country'.
 
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Marasca did not clear them. The verdict was 'insufficient evidence'. As for drugs, AK and RS themselves have confessed to extensive drug use. On the night of the murder they themselves claim they were doped up to the eyeballs. I don't believe the tests you claim were carried out can have been very accurate if they can't even identify marijuana and associated THC, together whatever additional stuff it is often mixed with.
1. A tiresome lie. Knox and Sollecito were fully acquitted on the murder/rape charges because there was no credible evidence of their guilt. Thus, the legal conclusion was that they had not committed the act of the crime.

2. Your statement on "drug use" is misleading because the only drug use was of cannabis (marijuana). Possession of small amounts of cannabis for personal use is currently not a criminal offense in Italy, but may lead to civil penalties:

Cannabis is currently legal for medical and industrial uses in Italy, although it is strictly regulated, while it is decriminalized for recreational uses. In particular, the possession of small amounts of marijuana for personal use is a civil infraction. The possible sanctions for possession vary from the issuing of a diffida to first offenders, which is an injunction not to use the drug again; to the temporary suspension of certain personal documents (e.g. driving licenses) for repeat offenders. Conversely, the unauthorized sale of cannabis-related products is illegal and punishable with imprisonment, as is the unlicensed cultivation of cannabis, although recent court cases have effectively established the legality of cultivating small amounts of cannabis for exclusively personal use. The licensed cultivation of cannabis for medical and industrial purposes requires the use of certified seeds; however, there is no need for authorization to plant certified seeds with minimal levels of psychoactive compounds (a.k.a. cannabis light).

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Italy

Furthermore:

Cannabis products are the most used illicit drugs in Italy. As a matter of fact, 8.5 percent of people in Italy consumed cannabis in 2022.

Source: https://www.statista.com/topics/11494/illicit-drug-use-in-italy/#editorsPicks
 
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1. A tiresome lie. Knox and Sollecito were fully acquitted on the murder/rape charges because there was no credible evidence of their guilt. Thus, the legal conclusion was that they had not committed the act of the crime.

2. Your statement on "drug use" is misleading because the only drug use was of cannabis (marijuana). Possession of small amounts of cannabis for personal use is currently not a criminal offense in Italy, but may lead to civil penalties:



Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Italy

Furthermore:



Source: https://www.statista.com/topics/11494/illicit-drug-use-in-italy/#editorsPicks

I think you are missing the point somewhat. A poster claims Guede was a 'drug dealer' (despite his having no criminal convictions in this respect) yet the pair openly celebrate drug taking...drugs I presume were bought from...a drug dealer? How does that make AK/RS any better than the dealer, whom a poster claims is RG (presumably as part of the campaign which presumes to exculpate the saintly angels)? In addition, cannabis use is not harmless if it affects behaviour, making someone so high they commit crimes they would not under normal circumstances. It is known to cause psychosis and paranoia, especially when infused with lysergic acid or similar. So when a poster brags that a 'drugs test' found no narcotic usage in AK and RS, how does that reconcile with their own accounts of smoking pot all evening on the night of the murder? Did the drug test not identify this, and if not, then it is not much of a drugs test, is it? Further, it would be useful if you or the poster could provided a source that outlines when, where and the results of the drugs tests in which it is claimed no narcotics use was identified. Especially given AK consorted with a convicted cocaine drug smuggler.
 
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Marasca did not clear of them. The verdict was 'insufficient evidence'.
False. The verdict was "of the rubric for not having committed the act."
2.The court shall give a judgment of acquittal even if there is no proof, insufficient evidence or contradictory evidence that the fact exists, that the accused has committed it, that the fact constitutes a criminal offence or that the offence was committed by a person liable.
Predictably, you cherry-pick the one you like.
As for drugs, AK and RS themselves have confessed to extensive drug use.
Blatant lie. AK has never said she used any drug outside of smoking weed. RS admitted to briefly using some drugs years before in his book:

The reports of my drug addiction were similarly exaggerated. When I was seventeen or eighteen, I did experiment briefly with ecstasy, poppers, and, on one occasion, cocaine. I was way too timid to push my luck with any of them, and I stopped almost as soon as I started.
Not one witness claimed to see or know of RS using hard drugs while in Perugia. If he had, you can be damn sure that someone would have come forward with that info and Mignini would have used it in court. He didn't.
On the night of the murder they themselves claim they were doped up to the eyeballs.
No, they admitted to smoking weed like everyone else in that cottage including Meredith. Resorting to such hyperbolic nonsense as "doped up to the eyeballs" is just the usual rubbish.
I don't believe the tests you claim were carried out can have been very accurate if they can't even identify marijuana and associated THC, together whatever additional stuff it is often mixed with.
Another perfect example of denying the scientific evidence when it doesn't suit you.
So you don't believe the tests for narcotics ordered by Mignini were very accurate? Both Mignini and you want us to believe they were high on hard drugs like cocaine despite no evidence supporting that and a forensic test disproving it. Just like you want us to believe all those luminol revealed prints were in blood despite all the negative TMB tests. Just like you want us to believe there was a massive bleach clean-up despite no evidence of any. You claim that what we are "looking for are scientific empirical objective facts" then deny them when they don't support your beliefs.
 
It is conjecture as Guede was never made a suspect re Tramontano's claims, it was never corroborated nor tested in a court of law.
It's not conjecture as both Tramontano and his girlfriend gave a sworn deposition to the police. Both Massei and Hellmann refer to him with Hellmann (pg. 80) stating:
He not only ‐ as already mentioned ‐ had accrued experience as the perpetrator of thefts in buildings owned by others, even committed with the victims of theft present at home [122] (see Tramontano); not only did he not hesitate to use the knife to threaten the burglary victim who had chased him (Tramentano again, but also he had taken possession of a knife 40 cm long in the Milan nursery school )...

Tramontano claimed he didn't even have the patience to report it at the Questura, claiming the queue was too long.
And you find this unreasonable?
It is not a fact Guede was a burglar, as he had no burglary convictions.
Did Guede illegally access the kindergarten? Yes.
Was Guede caught red-handed with the school's kitchen knife in his backpack? Yes.
That makes him a burglar.

Not being caught and convicted does not make a burglar not a burglar. Jack the Ripper was a serial killer despite the fact he was never caught and convicted. The Zodiac Killer was a serial killer despite never being caught and convicted.

Like a said before, which is more likely?

a) Guede broke in and stole the items from the law office or
b) Guede running into a man (who just happened to be the 'real' burglar) 200 miles away in a train station two weeks later and bought the stolen phone and laptop. Considering he was unemployed and broke, just what did he buy them with?

Between the law office (Oct. 13) and kindergarten break-in (Oct. 27), Guede's neighbor's house is burglarized (Oct. 23) and she has a woman's gold watch stolen. It's just another coincidence that a woman's gold watch is found in Guede's backpack. Why would Guede have a woman's gold watch and how would he have paid for it?

Being in possession of stolen goods is a quite different criminal offence from burglary and breaking and entering. You don't really understand law.
Don't play stupid games, Vixen. They couldn't prove Guede broke into the law office so they tried and convicted him on the lesser charge of being in possession of stolen goods.

Your saying someone is a burglar doesn't make it so.
You're right. The FACT that he was caught red-handed with a stolen knife in the kindergarten makes him a burglar. The FACT that two witnesses caught him burglarizing their apartment makes him a burglar.

"Your saying someone is a burglar doesn't make it so." You might want to remember that the next time you claim RS and AK are murders.
The guys who produced the Netflix film claimed Guede was a prolific burglar based on zero verified evidence. IOW it was just a lie designed to mislead the viewer. As Micheli confirms in the MR, Guede had a clean record apart from the pending Milan nursery case, which rejected breaking and entering.
Just stop it. Guede couldn't hold down a job and his former foster mother had to go behind her husband's back to get him a dinky little apartment because he was homeless and broke.
He was a thief who took things out of girls' purses according to his friend, too.

I am not sure you understand law. Being charged with DV and alleged rape by his former girlfriend, who says she had no idea he was a convicted murderer, really has no bearing at all on the guilt or innocence of AK and RS in the 2007 case.
I'm not sure you understand that it goes to show his character and what he's capable of doing. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.
Looking at RS, AK and RG all three had difficult backgrounds. AK single-parent working class, RG and RS middle class backgrounds but with hidden tragedy,
LOL! Neither AK nor RS was abandoned by their parents or physically and mentally abused like RG.

yet Burleigh solely focussing heavily on RG being a poor immigrant, a supposed 'drifter' - when he had his own bedsit and did work
He WAS a poor immigrant with no permanent home growing up. His "own bedsit" was only possible because Mrs. Caporali gave him a letter of reference after he was thrown out by Mr. Caporali for lying and failing to hold a job. He had no job and no savings so just how did he pay that rent? It's not a stretch to think he lived by theft and selling stolen goods. He only worked sporadically and was constantly quitting or getting fired.
- was a very clever piece of heavy MAGA-style appealing to people's prejudices. No doubt were Guede Mexican, Burleigh would be hinting heavily that he was undocumented and unskilled, as well as a criminal rapist invading 'our country'.
Oh, just stop it! When you have to resort to this "MAGA" rubbish, you only make yourself look foolish. Stop embarrassing yourself.
 
I think you are missing the point somewhat. A poster claims Guede was a 'drug dealer' (despite his having no criminal convictions in this respect)
Already covered this nonsense. You might want to contact the BBC and The Telegraph for printing misinformation:

1. "Drug-dealer Guede was jailed for 30 years for the sexual assault and murder of Miss Kercher after a separate fast-track trial. His sentence was reduced to 16 years on appeal."

2. "Small-time drug dealer Guede fled to Germany but was extradited to Italy. "

3. "Guede, a drug dealer from the Ivory Coast, has admitted being present at Miss Kercher's cottage on the night of the murder but denied involvement."

4. "Only one person was definitively convicted of the murder of Kercher – Rudy Guede, a small-time drug dealer born in the Ivory Coast who lived in Perugia."

5. "Prosecutors said it was the result of a four-way sex game in which Miss Knox, Mr Sollecito and Rudy Guede, a small-time drug dealer from Perugia of Ivory Coast origin,"

There are more.

yet the pair openly celebrate drug taking...drugs I presume were bought from...a drug dealer?
Sigh. They smoked weed like most of the students and young people in Perugia, including everyone in the cottage. Silenzi even grew it downstairs. Sophie Purton told Mignini the boys downstairs provided Meredith with weed. Amanda said that Filomena and Laura provided the weed for the upstairs.

How does that make AK/RS any better than the dealer, whom a poster claims is RG
Buying weed for personal use is a civil infraction, not criminal offense, in Italy. SELLING it is a criminal offense.
And I never said they bought anything from Guede.
(presumably as part of the campaign which presumes to exculpate the saintly angels)?

face palm - Copy.png

In addition, cannabis use is not harmless if it affects behaviour, making someone so high they commit crimes they would not under normal circumstances. It is known to cause psychosis and paranoia, especially when infused with lysergic acid or similar.
Oh, brother. It does NOT turn someone into a homicidal maniac. Psychosis and paranoia can be displayed by some HEAVY and LONG TERM users, which is not RS or AK. According to you, Perugia must be rampant with psychotic weed smoking students running around killing people.

So when a poster brags that a 'drugs test' found no narcotic usage in AK and RS, how does that reconcile with their own accounts of smoking pot all evening on the night of the murder?
So now I'm "bragging" when I state a fact? Please refrain from the silly hyperbole.
You are pushing the lie that Knox and Sollecito used hard drugs other than weed. Mignini tried this in court also without any evidence.
Did the drug test not identify this, and if not, then it is not much of a drugs test, is it?
Once again, you need to deny the results of forensic tests because they don't support your agenda.
No one, not even AK and RS, deny they were smoking weed that night.
"L'ispezione personale sulla persona di Lumumba DIYA, SOLLECITO Raffaele e KNOX Amanda Marie nonche procedere al prelievo di campioni di salive onde accerrare il profilo genetico (DNA) per il quale, il medico legale curera la consegna al personale della polizia Scientifica di Perugia. Procedere inoltre a prelievo di capell e peli pubici, nonche dell'urina al fine de accertare la presenza di sostanze stupefacenti e/o psicotrope,...
Translation:
"The personal inspection on the person of Lumumba DIYA, SOLLECITO Raffaele and KNOX Amanda Marie as well as proceed to the collection of samples of saliva to confirm the genetic profile (DNA) for which, the coroner will take care of the delivery to the staff of the Scientific Police of Perugia. In addition, hair and pubic hair, as well as urine, should be taken for the presence of narcotic and/or psychotropic substances,..."

So the TMB isn't sensitive enough to detect blood in all nine samples and now the hair test isn't accurate enough to detect narcotics?

Further, it would be useful if you or the poster could provided a source that outlines when, where and the results of the drugs tests in which it is claimed no narcotics use was identified.
If they had found cocaine, meth, etc in their hair tests, you can be damn sure the prosecution would have presented the test results in court. They never did. Even you can figure out why they didn't. Or maybe not.

Even Follain wrote:

Mignini suspected that on the night of the murder Amanda and Raffaele had taken drugs stronger than the marijuana they had admitted to; maybe cocaine, he thought. But no such traces were found in either Amanda or Raffaele’s hair.

Especially given AK consorted with a convicted cocaine drug smuggler.
There you go again with the exaggerated nonsense! She met the guy for one day and part of one night in Florence and never saw or communicated with him again.
This rubbish all started with the Italian crime tabloid "Giallo":
What you will not be able to provide is any evidence that Knox communicated with or bought drugs from 'Frederico".
Nor was Knox ever charged with anything related to him. This is just another example of speculation by the police that went nowhere.
 
I think you are missing the point somewhat. A poster claims Guede was a 'drug dealer' (despite his having no criminal convictions in this respect) yet the pair openly celebrate drug taking...drugs I presume were bought from...a drug dealer? How does that make AK/RS any better than the dealer, whom a poster claims is RG (presumably as part of the campaign which presumes to exculpate the saintly angels)? In addition, cannabis use is not harmless if it affects behaviour, making someone so high they commit crimes they would not under normal circumstances. It is known to cause psychosis and paranoia, especially when infused with lysergic acid or similar. So when a poster brags that a 'drugs test' found no narcotic usage in AK and RS, how does that reconcile with their own accounts of smoking pot all evening on the night of the murder? Did the drug test not identify this, and if not, then it is not much of a drugs test, is it? Further, it would be useful if you or the poster could provided a source that outlines when, where and the results of the drugs tests in which it is claimed no narcotics use was identified. Especially given AK consorted with a convicted cocaine drug smuggler.
I think you are missing the point in its entirety.
I've posted nothing about Guede being a drug dealer, and I don't have any independent reference to support that allegation. Others may have such information.

Knox and Sollecito have each stated that they used cannabis (marijuana) at times before the interrogations of 5 - 6 November 2007. There was no information or evidence presented in the Knox - Sollecito trials that either used any other drugs. Your comments about additives or contaminants in cannabis are speculations that are irrelevant to the Knox - Sollecito case.

The occasional use of cannabis or alcohol by a person is not an indication that the person will commit violent crimes. On the other hand, there are possible negative health effects especially if the use of either cannabis or alcohol is excessive.

A US government survey conducted in 2021 found that about 36.4 million persons, 12 years of age or older, had used marijuana in the past month.* Cannabis personal use has been decriminalized in some countries, such as the Netherlands, and legalized in others, such as Germany.** In the US, cannabis for personal use has been decriminalized in 7 states, legalized in 24 states, 3 territories, and the District of Columbia, but remains illegal under federal law.**

* https://www.samhsa.gov/data/sites/default/files/reports/rpt39443/2021NSDUHFFRRev010323.pdf
** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_cannabis#Legalization_timeline
 
I think you are missing the point somewhat. A poster claims Guede was a 'drug dealer' (despite his having no criminal convictions in this respect) yet the pair openly celebrate drug taking...drugs I presume were bought from...a drug dealer? How does that make AK/RS any better than the dealer, whom a poster claims is RG (presumably as part of the campaign which presumes to exculpate the saintly angels)? In addition, cannabis use is not harmless if it affects behaviour, making someone so high they commit crimes they would not under normal circumstances. It is known to cause psychosis and paranoia, especially when infused with lysergic acid or similar. So when a poster brags that a 'drugs test' found no narcotic usage in AK and RS, how does that reconcile with their own accounts of smoking pot all evening on the night of the murder? Did the drug test not identify this, and if not, then it is not much of a drugs test, is it? Further, it would be useful if you or the poster could provided a source that outlines when, where and the results of the drugs tests in which it is claimed no narcotics use was identified. Especially given AK consorted with a convicted cocaine drug smuggler.
The original source of the allegation that Rudy Guede was a drug dealer is not a poster but sources in Italy, presumably the police. We can be confident that there was some official source, because the claim that Guede was a drug dealer appeared in Italian news media as early as 19 November 2007 when he was identified as the "4th suspect" in Kercher's death.

Here's the relevant excerpt from a news article in Quotidiano Nazionale, byline dated 19 November 2007 (Google Translation):

Known as a small-time drug dealer, Rudy Hermann, who has an international arrest warrant pending for the murder of Meredith Kercher, reveals singular characteristics. His recent past in a wealthy family with three children (who had taken him into foster care at 17, after the boy had had problems with his legitimate father, with whom he had arrived in Italy at the age of 5), his passion for sports (he played as a guard in the Nuova Perugia basketball team, leading the 2004-2005 championship in Serie C1 and leaving a good memory in all the management and former teammates), his work in pubs and pizzerias to support his studies (he had attended the hotel management school for about a year and never completed the Vittorio Emanuele commercial technical institute) and his rejection of these positive values to abandon his second home, the job as a gardener that his new family had given him in his agritourism business to enter the dark world of drugs.

It seems that he had left Umbria during the summer, moving to Milan where he had gotten into trouble again because of drugs, to return to Perugia a few days before the crime (he lived in an apartment in Corso Garibaldi where Raffaele Sollecito also has his studio flat) and return to Milan after Meredith's death (a police patrol apparently caught him with a small quantity of drugs in his pocket).
Source: https://www.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2007/11/20/47946-rudy_guede_ecco_quarto_uomo.shtml
 
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The original source of the allegation that Rudy Guede was a drug dealer is not a poster but sources in Italy, presumably the police. We can be confident that there was some official source, because the claim that Guede was a drug dealer appeared in Italian news media as early as 19 November 2007 when he was identified as the "4th suspect" in Kercher's death.

Here's the relevant excerpt from a news article in Quotidiano Nazionale, byline dated 19 November 2007 (Google Translation):


Source: https://www.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2007/11/20/47946-rudy_guede_ecco_quarto_uomo.shtml
You don't understand! The BBC, The Telegraph, and Quotidiano Nazionale are all "bent"! They probably just felt sorry for them and wanted to help them out like Altieri and Popovic. :sarcasm:
 
False. The verdict was "of the rubric for not having committed the act."

Predictably, you cherry-pick the one you like.

Blatant lie. AK has never said she used any drug outside of smoking weed. RS admitted to briefly using some drugs years before in his book:


Not one witness claimed to see or know of RS using hard drugs while in Perugia. If he had, you can be damn sure that someone would have come forward with that info and Mignini would have used it in court. He didn't.

No, they admitted to smoking weed like everyone else in that cottage including Meredith. Resorting to such hyperbolic nonsense as "doped up to the eyeballs" is just the usual rubbish.

Another perfect example of denying the scientific evidence when it doesn't suit you.
So you don't believe the tests for narcotics ordered by Mignini were very accurate? Both Mignini and you want us to believe they were high on hard drugs like cocaine despite no evidence supporting that and a forensic test disproving it. Just like you want us to believe all those luminol revealed prints were in blood despite all the negative TMB tests. Just like you want us to believe there was a massive bleach clean-up despite no evidence of any. You claim that what we are "looking for are scientific empirical objective facts" then deny them when they don't support your beliefs.
<YAWN> Rationalization #101: 'Meredith Kercher's blood was really root vegetable juice; that is what the luminol footprints show'.

In any case, not being on drugs or other substance abuse makes the murder even more cold-blooded and deliberately cruel, so it is not the win you believe it to be.
 
Already covered this nonsense. You might want to contact the BBC and The Telegraph for printing misinformation:

1. "Drug-dealer Guede was jailed for 30 years for the sexual assault and murder of Miss Kercher after a separate fast-track trial. His sentence was reduced to 16 years on appeal."

2. "Small-time drug dealer Guede fled to Germany but was extradited to Italy. "

3. "Guede, a drug dealer from the Ivory Coast, has admitted being present at Miss Kercher's cottage on the night of the murder but denied involvement."

4. "Only one person was definitively convicted of the murder of Kercher – Rudy Guede, a small-time drug dealer born in the Ivory Coast who lived in Perugia."

5. "Prosecutors said it was the result of a four-way sex game in which Miss Knox, Mr Sollecito and Rudy Guede, a small-time drug dealer from Perugia of Ivory Coast origin,"

There are more.


Sigh. They smoked weed like most of the students and young people in Perugia, including everyone in the cottage. Silenzi even grew it downstairs. Sophie Purton told Mignini the boys downstairs provided Meredith with weed. Amanda said that Filomena and Laura provided the weed for the upstairs.


Buying weed for personal use is a civil infraction, not criminal offense, in Italy. SELLING it is a criminal offense.
And I never said they bought anything from Guede.


View attachment 61895


Oh, brother. It does NOT turn someone into a homicidal maniac. Psychosis and paranoia can be displayed by some HEAVY and LONG TERM users, which is not RS or AK. According to you, Perugia must be rampant with psychotic weed smoking students running around killing people.


So now I'm "bragging" when I state a fact? Please refrain from the silly hyperbole.
You are pushing the lie that Knox and Sollecito used hard drugs other than weed. Mignini tried this in court also without any evidence.

Once again, you need to deny the results of forensic tests because they don't support your agenda.
No one, not even AK and RS, deny they were smoking weed that night.

Translation:
"The personal inspection on the person of Lumumba DIYA, SOLLECITO Raffaele and KNOX Amanda Marie as well as proceed to the collection of samples of saliva to confirm the genetic profile (DNA) for which, the coroner will take care of the delivery to the staff of the Scientific Police of Perugia. In addition, hair and pubic hair, as well as urine, should be taken for the presence of narcotic and/or psychotropic substances,..."

So the TMB isn't sensitive enough to detect blood in all nine samples and now the hair test isn't accurate enough to detect narcotics?


If they had found cocaine, meth, etc in their hair tests, you can be damn sure the prosecution would have presented the test results in court. They never did. Even you can figure out why they didn't. Or maybe not.

Even Follain wrote:




There you go again with the exaggerated nonsense! She met the guy for one day and part of one night in Florence and never saw or communicated with him again.
This rubbish all started with the Italian crime tabloid "Giallo":

What you will not be able to provide is any evidence that Knox communicated with or bought drugs from 'Frederico".
Nor was Knox ever charged with anything related to him. This is just another example of speculation by the police that went nowhere.


All that proves is that the extremely expensive Knox PR - Gogerty-Marriott and self-professed Knox advocate, Nina Burleigh, were successful in their PR campaign to beatify Knox and demonise the black guy. So suddenly, Knox and Sollecito are the epitome of high society whilst 'Guede is the hobo drug dealer drifter who is probably a Muslim'.
 
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The original source of the allegation that Rudy Guede was a drug dealer is not a poster but sources in Italy, presumably the police. We can be confident that there was some official source, because the claim that Guede was a drug dealer appeared in Italian news media as early as 19 November 2007 when he was identified as the "4th suspect" in Kercher's death.

Here's the relevant excerpt from a news article in Quotidiano Nazionale, byline dated 19 November 2007 (Google Translation):


Source: https://www.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2007/11/20/47946-rudy_guede_ecco_quarto_uomo.shtml

AFIACS you don't get onto hotel management courses and be a semi-professional basket ball player in a regular team if you are a convicted drug dealer, hobo, convicted burglar. In the UK the Hotel Catering university courses are highly sought after.
 
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AFIACS you don't get onto hotel management courses and be a semi-professional basket ball player in a regular team if you are a convicted drug dealer, hobo, convicted burglar. In the UK the Hotel Catering university courses are highly sought after.
Vixen, thanks for providing this non-sequitur which is either an attempt at humor or a bizarre incoherence.

The beginning of the Quotidiano Nazionale article I cited includes the following statements (Google translation):

Perugia, November 19, 2007 - The identikit of the fourth man implicated in the murder of Meredith Kercher has now been drawn and the Perugia investigators have written his name, Rudy Hermann, on an international arrest warrant. He is a 21-year-old African, originally from the Ivory Coast, who arrived in Italy not as an illegal immigrant but as a privileged regular, having been adopted by a family of industrialists from Perugia.

A conflictual relationship, marked by an abrupt separation and the young man's move to the drug dealing environment where he was soon noticed by the police. Five years ago he was the victim of a stabbing during a violent fight that broke out precisely over drugs. .....
So, if the first sentence of the second paragraph is true, Rudy Guede became involved in drug dealing despite his other activities in school and sports. It claims he was noticed by the police because of that drug dealing. If the second sentence of that paragraph is true, Guede had been injured in a stabbing that happened during a violent fight over drugs. Again, if this sentence is true, then Guede's scholarly and sports activities did not prevent ventures into drug dealing.

Source: https://www.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2007/11/20/47946-rudy_guede_ecco_quarto_uomo.shtml
 
Vixen, thanks for providing this non-sequitur which is either an attempt at humor or a bizarre incoherence.

The beginning of the Quotidiano Nazionale article I cited includes the following statements (Google translation):


So, if the first sentence of the second paragraph is true, Rudy Guede became involved in drug dealing despite his other activities in school and sports. It claims he was noticed by the police because of that drug dealing. If the second sentence of that paragraph is true, Guede had been injured in a stabbing that happened during a violent fight over drugs. Again, if this sentence is true, then Guede's scholarly and sports activities did not prevent ventures into drug dealing.

Source: https://www.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2007/11/20/47946-rudy_guede_ecco_quarto_uomo.shtml
Here's an excerpt from a brief summary of Rudy Guede's life as reported in Corriere.It (Corriere della Sera) on 20 November 2007 (Google Translated):

....
His childhood had been bad: together with his father, he arrived in Umbria when he was five, his mother was in the Ivory Coast. Every year, his father returned to Africa for a month. When Rudy was in eighth grade, however, his father told him: I'm going to Africa for a few weeks. Lie: the man leaves, and disappears. For five months, "Rudy doesn't even have anything to eat." So he goes to lunch with the basketball coach and to dinner with the entrepreneur who, after a few years, takes him in. Paolo Caporali, CEO of Liomatic, is used to helping: "My family gave him an opportunity, from the age of sixteen to eighteen we had him with us, even if you could tell he was a bit of a liar and that he didn't have much desire, neither to study nor to do anything else. But that he is the murderer, no, I don't believe it." Ilaria, one of the entrepreneur's three children, also talks about that vice of lying: "Yes, Rudy told quite a few." Mrs. Bruna, on the other hand, must have grown fond of that boy, because now she cries and repeats: "I can't believe it was him, it's not true." The Caporali family, in truth, also gives Rudy a second chance: the boy, during his stay in Lombardy, has put together a few odd jobs, a couple of arrests for petty crimes, a love story that ended quickly, so when he returns to Perugia, without a diploma and without a prospect, his "adoptive" family offers him a small contract as a gardener. Rudy, however, has not changed: he accepts the offer but does nothing but absent himself, says he is sick and is seen in the evening in the center laughing, and then, without an explanation, disappears for two weeks. In August, he is fired. Roberto Segoloni, his former basketball manager, is someone who loves him: he meets him at the end of September, asks him if he has drug problems. And he, without hesitation: "No, and if you don't believe me, take me to get tested." Of course, now, other tests get him into trouble. Who knows where he is, and who knows what he will say when they catch him: who knows if, this time, he will want to tell the truth.

Source: https://www.corriere.it/cronache/07...o_meredith_perugia_ivoriano_quarto_uomo.shtml
 
Vixen, thanks for providing this non-sequitur which is either an attempt at humor or a bizarre incoherence.

The beginning of the Quotidiano Nazionale article I cited includes the following statements (Google translation):


So, if the first sentence of the second paragraph is true, Rudy Guede became involved in drug dealing despite his other activities in school and sports. It claims he was noticed by the police because of that drug dealing. If the second sentence of that paragraph is true, Guede had been injured in a stabbing that happened during a violent fight over drugs. Again, if this sentence is true, then Guede's scholarly and sports activities did not prevent ventures into drug dealing.

Source: https://www.quotidiano.net/cronaca/2007/11/20/47946-rudy_guede_ecco_quarto_uomo.shtml
I cannot see any reference to Guede having been a drug dealer, as you claim. It simply says that five years ago, when he would have been 15 - he was aged 20 as of the time of the Kercher murder - that he was stabbed in a drugs-related dispute. Judge Micheli confirmed at Guede's trial that he had a clean record. There was no criminal record of burglary or drug dealing, thus we can conclude these claims are simply Gogerty-Marriott, Burleigh and the Friends of Amanda Knox attempts to fool people into believing Guede was the baddie and AK/RS the innocent goodies. In fact, unlike Guede, Sollecito AND Knox did have police records; ironically, Sollecito had a police caution for possession of DRUGS and Knox a police ticket and caution for a vile anti-social party. Sollecito even brags in his ghost written hagiography, in which he is the hero ('Honor Bound') of how he fooled the police on one occasion, when ...he was in possession of drugs. As for the British newspapers, they rely heavily on press agencies that syndicate news items and press releases, in particular AP News (of New York), Reuters and ANSA (Italy). Colleen Barry, who is responsible for many of the AP News press releases on the pair, is an avid Amanda Knox fan, consistently presenting Knox as being an innocent person who is the victim of a miscarriage of justice. In her press release re the latest Calunnia appeal she actually worded it in terms of, this is Amanda's last attempt to remove the 'final stain' [of the miscarriage]. Once you are aware of how PR, propaganda, misinformation, defamation and disinformation works, you can effectively guard yourself from being swayed by it. Most people here are either persuaded by the likes of Colleen Barry or they are openly advocates for the defence and couldn't care less whether the client is innocent or guilty, they are just here to put a spin on it and to pretend pretty much what Colleen Barry and Nina Burleigh likes to pretend and wants you to think. For the truth is, Guede is no more saint or sinner than Knox or Sollecito. Everybody is two-thirds saint and one-third jerk, or some such proportion of either and thus, when you attempt to persuade us that Guede was a confirmed drug dealer and burglar, when in reality, it is pure conjecture, not fact (such as being able to point to a criminal conviction or police caution), those of us who are immune to this type of spin are just going to sniff the bull butter and remain highly sceptical of the hype. Those of us who want to get to the real truth of what happened are likely to look at it from the POV of 'Did Guede do it all alone?' and one can only conclude that when looked at from this POV, things just don't add up. Yet when we look at the case constructed by the prosecution, OK so there are some grey areas, but the prosecution case stacks up: the objective scientific empirical evidence of the mixed blood DNA - HOW did Knox get her DNA mixed with Mez' blood - WHY are hers and RS's bare footprints highlighted by luminol, and his, as plain as day, on the bathmat (so hey, it is the victim's blood and not turnip juice!) - the phones being switched off for the duration of the murder, the massive flooding in RS' apartment, the to-ing and fro-ing of the mop - the overall behaviour simply not adding up; the false alibi of RS, which he has never rectified to this day; his refusal to take the witness box; AFAICS, the prosecution case is pretty solid. It is completely irrelevant whether Guede was adopted as a young boy. You could counter that with Sollecito's mother committing suicide, or Knox' father running off with another woman and dumping Knox and her sister. It helps explain background and character but the fact the three were young adults help explain a lot in itself, as a young adult thrill kill murder.
 
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I cannot see any reference to Guede having been a drug dealer, as you claim. It simply says that five years ago, when he would have been 15 - he was aged 20 as of the time of the Kercher murder - that he was stabbed in a drugs-related dispute. Judge Micheli confirmed at Guede's trial that he had a clean record. There was no criminal record of burglary or drug dealing, thus we can conclude these claims are simply Gogerty-Marriott, Burleigh and the Friends of Amanda Knox attempts to fool people into believing Guede was the baddie and AK/RS the innocent goodies. In fact, unlike Guede, Sollecito AND Knox did have police records; ironically, Sollecito had a police caution for possession of DRUGS and Knox a police ticket and caution for a vile anti-social party. Sollecito even brags in his ghost written hagiography, in which he is the hero ('Honor Bound') of how he fooled the police on one occasion, when ...he was in possession of drugs. As for the British newspapers, they rely heavily on press agencies that syndicate news items and press releases, in particular AP News (of New York), Reuters and ANSA (Italy). Colleen Barry, who is responsible for many of the AP News press releases on the pair, is an avid Amanda Knox fan, consistently presenting Knox as being an innocent person who is the victim of a miscarriage of justice. In her press release re the latest Calunnia appeal she actually worded it in terms of, this is Amanda's last attempt to remove the 'final stain' [of the miscarriage]. Once you are aware of how PR, propaganda, misinformation, defamation and disinformation works, you can effectively guard yourself from being swayed by it. Most people here are either persuaded by the likes of Colleen Barry or they are openly advocates for the defence and couldn't care less whether the client is innocent or guilty, they are just here to put a spin on it and to pretend pretty much what Colleen Barry and Nina Burleigh likes to pretend and wants you to think. For the truth is, Guede is no more saint or sinner than Knox or Sollecito. Everybody is two-thirds saint and one-third jerk, or some such proportion of either and thus, when you attempt to persuade us that Guede was a confirmed drug dealer and burglar, when in reality, it is pure conjecture, not fact (such as being able to point to a criminal conviction or police caution), those of us who are immune to this type of spin are just going to sniff the bull butter and remain highly sceptical of the hype. Those of us who want to get to the real truth of what happened are likely to look at it from the POV of 'Did Guede do it all alone?' and one can only conclude that when looked at from this POV, things just don't add up. Yet when we look at the case constructed by the prosecution, OK so there are some grey areas, but the prosecution case stacks up: the objective scientific empirical evidence of the mixed blood DNA - HOW did Knox get her DNA mixed with Mez' blood - WHY are hers and RS's bare footprints highlighted by luminol, and his, as plain as day, on the bathmat (so hey, it is the victim's blood and not turnip juice!) - the phones being switched off for the duration of the murder, the massive flooding in RS' apartment, the to-ing and fro-ing of the mop - the overall behaviour simply not adding up; the false alibi of RS, which he has never rectified to this day; his refusal to take the witness box; AFAICS, the prosecution case is pretty solid. It is completely irrelevant whether Guede was adopted as a young boy. You could counter that with Sollecito's mother committing suicide, or Knox' father running off with another woman and dumping Knox and her sister. It helps explain background and character but the fact the three were young adults help explain a lot itself, as a young adult thrill kill murder.
Again, your poor reading comprehension is clear. I have not "claimed" that Guede was a drug dealer. It was claimed in an article in an Italian media article, an excerpt of which I posted, but not in the one you are now quoting. The one that you are now quoting does not have that exact claim, but provides additional background on Guede, alleging that he had entered a drug underworld, possibly as a user (it's not that clear), and abandoned other opportunities in school, sports, and in the support offered by the wealthy Italian family that had previously helped him. It portrays him, based on statements from people who interacted with him, that is, that supporting Italian family, as someone who consistently tends to lie.

I'm not "claiming" these issues or alleged facts, I am conveying the Italian media reports that are making those claims. Your biases prevent you from accepting the possible truth of those articles.

The rest of your response is one more repetition of your views which have little or no correspondence with actual facts, or which misinterpret actual facts to fit your biases.
 
<YAWN> Rationalization #101: 'Meredith Kercher's blood was really root vegetable juice; that is what the luminol footprints show'.

In any case, not being on drugs or other substance abuse makes the murder even more cold-blooded and deliberately cruel, so it is not the win you believe it to be.
<YAWN> Rationalization #983: 'Disregard ALL lab results that don't support guilt. These tests are bent. Luminol never has false positives.'

In any case, as both Amanda and Raffaele were definitively acquitted of the murder, the rest of your comment is irrelevant.
 
All that proves is that the extremely expensive Knox PR - Gogerty-Marriott and self-professed Knox advocate, Nina Burleigh, were successful in their PR campaign to beatify Knox and demonise the black guy. So suddenly, Knox and Sollecito are the epitome of high society whilst 'Guede is the hobo drug dealer drifter who is probably a Muslim'.
<YAWN> Rationalization #817: 'Blame all media coverage not supporting AK/RS guilt on Marriott and the mythical PR supertanker.'

Of course, as was pointed out, these stories began appearing before Marriott was even hired. I'd say nice try, but it really wasn't.

As an aside, please explain how media writing stories about Guede's lifestyle transformed Amanda and Raffaele into the "epitome of high society" or how it identifies Guede as a "Muslim". Your reputation for hyperbole and non sequitur is legendary... good to see you still have the magic.
 

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