Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[theprestige]

Firing people based on transgender status by painting every single transgender servicemember as negatively impacting "readiness, lethality, cohesion, honesty, humility, uniformity, and integrity" is irrationally prejudicial; basing policy on our irrational prejudices is an actual social problem.

I disagree.

Look, either it's a mental health issue that causes distress and impairs performance without certain accommodations, in which case a blanket ban on service is reasonable...

Or it's an optional affectation, and a denial of accommodation as a condition of service is reasonable.

Had the policy been something more neutral like "Soldiers requiring regular injections cannot serve at forward operating bases" then we'd be having a nuanced argument about where to draw the line in terms of operational goals, but this policy is just a blanket ban on service.

As they say, "keep it simple". Bespoke, nuanced accommodations for a tiny demographic that will become depressed and suicidal without them isn't worth the effort.

What's your experience with military service?

Basic training, MOS training, 6 years reserve service, first as a file clerk, then as an intel analyst. Assigned to a PSYOP battalion HQ, in both MOS's. Also assigned for most of that time as a section driver, responsible for maintaining and operating the section HMMWV. Also got to chauffer the BN commander around in his POV once or twice. All of this during the peak of Clinton-era "don't ask, don't tell". Why do you ask?

 

[Thermal]

You previously stated that you know autogynephilia is not scientific

Factally untrue. It is perfectly scientific under it's actual definition and usage. What the trans-haters do with it is outside that.

because it is only proposed by three people, and nothing has been published on it for a long time.

Also untrue. The three pushed for acceptance of their guesswork and hunches, couldn't provide any significant evidence on their own, and the larger community does not accept their postulate.

When I pointed out that is not true that no other evidence has been published and that you just haven't looked for it, you admitted you hadn't looked for it and have no intention of doing so.

Correct. I have no interest in reading various fringe theories that have no support within the community.

At the same time, you accept without question a theory of gender identity that proposes all causes of gender dysphoria or trans identification have the same cause, regardless of age of onset, sex, sexual orientation or any other factor. This theory has no empirical support whatsoever, and is inconsistent with all available evidence.

Also untrue. You're on a roll with this post. For instance, Rapid Onset seems like it's substantial, with a lot of explanatory power, and warrants further research. I hope it gets more traction.

 

[Rolfe]

This is good news. If the Scottish Parliament can get its act together to comply with the law, there is no excuse for other public bodies not doing the same.



Changed days from the time the Gender Recognition Reform bill was being debated, and there were creepy, hairy blokes in dresses bragging about using the women's toilets. Encouraged by SNP, LibDem and Green MSPs. Alex Cole-Hamilton clapped the vote and said they'd done it for Beth. Beth being a cross-dressing male prostitute who was smirking in the public gallery.

 

[Ziggurat]

I have no interest in reading various fringe theories that have no support within the community.

Does the "community" have an established record of competence such that we should place faith in its collective judgement?

No, it manifestly does not.

 

[Thermal]

Does the "community" have an established record of competence such that we should place faith in its collective judgement?

No, it manifestly does not.

Beats the hell out of the competance and faith inspired by a guy with a Sawz-All with a dildo strapped onto it.

 

[d4m10n]

Look, either it's a mental health issue that causes distress and impairs performance without certain accommodations, in which case a blanket ban on service is reasonable...

Talk about an excluded middle; you seem to have overlooked the possibility that someone can function normally after diagnosis and treatment, even when treatment was solely psychotherapeutic (rather than pharmocological) in nature.

Basic training, MOS training, 6 years reserve service, first as a file clerk, then as an intel analyst. Assigned to a PSYOP battalion HQ, in both MOS's. Also assigned for most of that time as a section driver, responsible for maintaining and operating the section HMMWV. Also got to chauffer the BN commander around in his POV once or twice. All of this during the peak of Clinton-era "don't ask, don't tell". Why do you ask?

More like whom did I ask...but since you've stepped up, do you happen to recall the same readiness-based arguments beings used to justify a blanket ban on gays & lesbians during the Clinton era?

 

[Rolfe]

A man functioning normally in the military while pretending to be a woman? Yes, I think that is a possibility that most people would "overlook".

 

[smartcooky]

Agreed, because it is fiction, as is the twiiterer's claim that it afflicts "most" of transpeople. Your portrayal of the "trans cult" is indeed imaginary.

There appears to be an absolute ◊◊◊◊-load of these people you imagine are imaginary.

Agreed. As long as the anti-trans side relies on fictional shock scenes of people who aren't even trans instead of reality, we'll go on talking past each other.

Except, of course, they are not fictional, but I agree, they are shocking.

"This page doesn't exist". Poetic as an anti-trans argument, I guess.

The page displays just fine for me. If you can't for see it, that's a "you problem", however I agree its poetic that you can't see that which most everyone else can.

 

[d4m10n]

A man functioning normally in the military while pretending to be a woman?

May I safely assume you think it's okay for natal females to serve in uniform?

Do you believe transwomen couldn't fill those same roles with similar effectiveness, aside from the likelihood that women's uniforms won't fit quite as well?

 

[Rolfe]

There appears to be an absolute ◊◊◊◊-load of these people you imagine are imaginary.

Except, of course, they are not fictional, but I agree, they are shocking.

The page displays just fine for me. If you can't for see it, that's a "you problem", however I agree its poetic that you can't see that which most everyone else can.

The first page in the thread, the one I meant to link to, is linked in the very next post, and that one actually displays the tweet itself in the reply. However, I would recommend reading the entire thread. (Yes, the link to the later tweet in the thread also works. But as you say, some people seem unable to see that which is very clear to others.)

 

[Rolfe]

May I safely assume you think it's okay for natal females to serve in uniform?

Do you believe transwomen couldn't fill those same roles with similar effectiveness?

May I safely assume you don't think it's OK for "natal females" to have to share sleeping and bathing facilities with a man pretending to be a woman?

My own view is that, quite apart from the disruptive effect of trying to integrate a man pretending to be a woman into either the male or female arms of the service, someone who is so mentally unstable that he has to pretend to be the opposite sex isn't someone I'd want in any crucial role in the armed forces, from cannon fodder up.

 

[Thermal]

There appears to be an absolute ◊◊◊◊-load of these people you imagine are imaginary.


Except, of course, they are not fictional, but I agree, they are shocking.


The page displays just fine for me. If you can't for see it, that's a "you problem", however I agree its poetic that you can't see that which most everyone else can.

To catch you up to speed ...again... we were talking about the White Lotus character that even Rolfe acknowledges is imaginary.

And it seems to view that somewhat old tweety, you have to be logged into X. I already went into this. Can you make an effort to catch up before posting?

Eta: and yes, I say with pride that I don't have all my devices logged into the cesspool that Twitter has become. Just mobile, and I usually regret that. It *is* poetic what we choose to be a part of, n'est- ce pas?

 

[smartcooky]

To catch you up to speed ...again... we were talking about the White Lotus character that even Rolfe acknowledges is imaginary.

Still a relevant demonstration of autogynephelia though..

And it seems to view that somewhat old tweety, you have to be logged into X. I already went into this. Can you make an effort to catch up before posting?

Doesn't mean I didn't think it was poetic that you couldn't see it.

 

[Rolfe]

To catch you up to speed ...again... we were talking about the White Lotus character that even Rolfe acknowledges is imaginary.

And it seems to view that somewhat old tweety, you have to be logged into X. I already went into this. Can you make an effort to catch up before posting?

Eta: and yes, I say with pride that I don't have all my devices logged into the cesspool that Twitter has become. Just mobile, and I usually regret that. It *is* poetic what we choose to be a part of, n'est- ce pas?

The fictional scenario merely brought to the attention of a bemused public that men exist who have an erotic desire to adopt a demeaning female role in sex. The phenomenon of men with this compulsion making up a substantial proportion of the so-called transwoman demographic is becoming more widely understood.

The tweet is only about six weeks old. Twitter is what you choose to make of it. To me, Twitter is an interesting mix of supporters of Scottish independence, owners of electric cars, gender-critical feminists, road traffic reports, notifications of musical events I might like to take in, and some more eclectic stuff. If you follow accounts that you think create a "cesspool" then that's entirely your choice.

 

[Thermal]

It. Didn't. Depict. Autogynephilia. As. Anything. Related. To. Being. Trans.

Autogynephilia is the arousing thought of yourself as a woman. That's it. The rest of the ◊◊◊◊ is in your somewhat deranged imaginings.

 

[d4m10n]

May I safely assume you don't think it's OK for "natal females" to have to share sleeping and bathing facilities with a man pretending to be a woman?

A relevant argument if we're talking about who we might accept into basic training; doesn't remotely justify outprocessing REMFs who fly a desk and live in their own homes.

 

[theprestige]

Talk about an excluded middle; you seem to have overlooked the possibility that someone can function normally after diagnosis and treatment, even when treatment was solely psychotherapeutic (rather than pharmocological) in nature.

Not an excluded middle; a discarded middle. If by "function normally" you mean "must still seek to override sex segregation, or else experience dysphoric distress", then they're not functioning normally, as far as the military is concerned.

On the other hand, if by "function normally" you mean "can keep their dysphoria in remission", I don't think there's any real evidence this can be done through psychotherapy alone, or even through pharmacology. In any case, it's not the military's job to do this kind of research.

There are some psychological conditions that are generally acceptable for military service, if properly treated with non-burdensome (to the military) medicine. In all the years we've been debating this, I haven't seen any good reason to think gender dysphoria is one of those conditions.

I'm not going to speculate about an inclusive middle, just for your amusement. If you think such a thing exists, make your case. Define your terms, give your examples, show your reasoning, and share your conclusions.

More like whom did I ask...but since you've stepped up, do you happen to recall the same readiness-based arguments beings used to justify a blanket ban on gays & lesbians during the Clinton era?

No, I do not. Like I said, I served at the peak of "don't ask, don't tell". Readiness-based arguments were already on their way out. DADT deprecated them de facto, and Congress later followed through with deprecating them de jure.

Also, homosexuality is not analogous to gender dysphoria, autogynaephilia, or autism-induced trans identification.

There is good reason to think that a mentally healthy homosexual soldier can maintain the expected standards of modesty and propriety, just like their heterosexual counterparts.

Conversely, there is good reason to believe that autogynaephiliacs (for example) cannot - not without experiencing significant distress.

Now, if you can show me an autogynaephiliac that says, "my transsexual and predatory urges are kept in remission by this little pill, which I take once a day with a glass of water, and I'm happy to serve my country as man", then I can show you someone who I'd be willing to tolerate in our armed forces.

 

[d4m10n]

It. Didn't. Depict. Autogynephilia. As. Anything. Related. To. Being. Trans.

Yes. It. Did. Though.

 

[Rolfe]

A relevant argument if we're talking about who we might accept into basic training; doesn't remotely justify outprocessing REMFs who fly a desk and live in their own homes.

I don't even know what a REMF is. But the idea of someone as unstable as the trans-identifying people now popping up all over the place, and particularly at women's rights meetings near me, having any responsibility for national security, worries me quite a lot,

 

[theprestige]

A relevant argument if we're talking about who we might accept into basic training; doesn't remotely justify outprocessing REMFs who fly a desk and live in their own homes.

REMFs who still want to override sex segregation wherever they're posted, and will experience significant distress if thwarted. Keep it simple.