Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Hercules56]

The opposite, actually. Men are wondering why you are so hateful and ostracizing against one of your own, and why you are so happy to discriminate against them.

See, you keep forgetting that we think of them as women, not men. You are being hateful to women, from our POV.

How do YOU define a transwoman? How much transition must be done?

Should female bathroom privileges only be for transwomen who have undergone complete physical, surgical, hormonal and social transition?

What about transwomen who have undergone NO medical or physical transition, but only dress as women and have long hair?

 

[Thermal]

How do YOU define a transwoman? How much transition must be done?

Should female bathroom privileges only be for transwomen who have undergone complete physical, surgical, hormonal and social transition?

What about transwomen who have undergone NO medical or physical transition, but only dress as women and have long hair?

Any transition is between their ears. They have zero obligation to play dress up for you.

Eta: although I'd expect most do automatically, but there is no paper bag test I'm using on them.

 

[Hercules56]

Any transition is between their ears. They have zero obligation to play dress up for you.

OK, so you believe as long as they identity as a woman, they should be allowed to use the womens' locker room/bathroom/changing room. No transition either medical or social is required.

Gotcha.







Coming to a ladies room near you, following Thermal's logic.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Feel free to educate me about the politics of your country, just don't pretend it's misogynist men versus women when all the women I ask are not bothered by transwomen in women's public bathrooms.

There are a couple of explanations possible here.

One is that you surround yourself only with people who share your ideological bent, and thus they already agree with you on this specific issue. You then make the mistake of thinking that your friend group is somehow representative of all people, and you fail to recognize that you're in an ideological bubble.

A second one is that the females you've asked already know your very strong opinions on the matter, and aren't willing to share their honest opinions with you. They simply don't trust you enough to think you'd be open to their perspective on this, or they wish to avoid a confrontation with you that is likely to result in you berating them and mansplaining to them how wrong they are to not accept the view of males as being the right view.

A third one is that you have significant cognitive bias on the issue, and you discount all of the females that don't share your view, and you amplify the views of those that do. I tend to lean toward this explanation because your statement above is observably false.

You state that "all the women I ask are not bothered by transwomen in women's public bathrooms". But in this thread, there are myself, Rolfe, Elaedith, Pixel42, JihadJane, Tomboy, and Sherkeu who have all expressed that we *are* bothered by transgender identified males being granted access to our single-sex spaces. That's SEVEN females in this thread who make your statement observably false - and I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting a couple.

And just to hammer this home - there are relatively few females on ISF at all. Those of us who are active participants in any of the politics or social issues forums fall disproportionately on the side of transgender identified males NOT being women.

 

[Thermal]

OK, so you believe as long as they identity as a woman, they should be allowed to use the womens' locker room/bathroom/changing room. No transition either medical or social is required.

Gotcha

Nope. I've made my position clear and dear God repeatedly.

View attachment 59977

Coming to a ladies room near you, following Thermal's logic.

You have way too many pics of male models at your disposal.

Eta: and for God's sake, stop lying.

 

[Elaedith]

Two points: the data was compiled by a lousy 79 transwoman inmates out of a country of 69million. Statistically insignificant, by like the proverbial one in a million range.

If you are referring to the prison statistics showing proportion of self-identified transwomen prisoners who are sex offenders compared to the percentage of males who are sex offenders and females who are sex offenders, these are most definitely statistically significant. Self identified trans women offenders are significantly more likely to be sex offenders in the sample than male or female prisoners who do do not identify as trans.

You do not even comprehend the point of the statistics. Sex is single most important factor in criminal justice. Males have vastly different offending patterns than females and this is one reason for prisons being segregated by sex. Transwomen are male and self-identified transwomen show male offending patterns, not female patterns. And yes, these are replicated in other countries.

You are the one making an extraordinary claim that a sub-group of males somehow pose less threat to women than other males because they self-identify as women. The burden is on you to prove the claim.

Oh, and since you assert transwomen are "faking" themselves being trans so often, by what standard are these violent transwomen suddenly assumed to be so honest and not faking it? Serious question.

I have never asserted that 'transwomen are faking themselves being trans so often'. Yet another lie. I am losing count.

Nor did I claim or assume that these prisoners were being honest and not faking it. If they are faking it to get transferred to a women's prison, that would be a good reason not to let male offenders transfer to women's prisons by claiming to be trans, right?

 

[Thermal]

If you are referring to the prison statistics showing proportion of self-identified transwomen prisoners who are sex offenders compared to the percentage of males who are sex offenders and females who are sex offenders, these are most definitely statistically significant. Self identified trans women offenders are significantly more likely to be sex offenders in the sample than male or female prisoners who do do not identify as trans.

Note: you are assuming they are reporting honestly. See below where you deny this.

You do not even comprehend the point of the statistics.

I do. I just don't distort them.

Sex is single most important factor in criminal justice. Males have vastly different offending patterns than females and this is one reason for prisons being segregated by sex. Transwomen are male and self-identified transwomen show male offending patterns, not female patterns. And yes, these are replicated in other countries.

I know.

You are the one making an extraordinary claim that a sub-group of males somehow pose less threat to women than other males because they self-identify as women. The burden is on you to prove the claim.

I do not.

I have never asserted that 'transwomen are faking themselves being trans so often'. Yet another lie. I am losing count.

Since my stated positions are being ignored to shove words in my mouth for rhetorical convenience, I see no harm/foul in mirroring that back.

Nor did I claim or assume that these prisoners were being honest and not faking it. If they are faking it to get transferred to a women's prison, that would be a good reason not to let male offenders transfer to women's prisons by claiming to be trans, right?

What was that? See above. You can't claim.transwomen are more dangerous using that statistic, then immediately say "jk I don't assume they are transwomen at all"
.
Also, untrue. The Holy 79 offenders statistic has been held up to prove that transwomen are disproportionately violent. It's been thrown up a half dozen times since I've engaged in the discussion.

If it was not assumed the transwomen were honest, the stat would have no meaning. Yet it is ushered forth repeatedly like that box of crackers in a Catholic Church, holy and pure.

 

[Paul2]

-the women's shower: I asked about this long ago- how many of y'all are al getting naked together in gang showers? It's really not a thing in the States. Guys generally don't do so at all, nor the gals.

Guy here. The showers at my gym are gang/communal. Are there stats on this?

-changing rooms: I get changed on the public street, in and out of wetsuits without showing any inappropriate skin. So do women surfers. Not sure why you are intent on a little go-go dancing while you get changed. I get changed for training while sparring. Same thing: I'm not standing around twirling my cock for the audience. It's a reasonably discrete affair. And if you are so modest (or immodest) about getting changed in public: don't do so.

Communal changing room at my gym.

Adjust your lifestyle if you are so freaked out. It's not a necessity.

One should be able to predict the response to this.

 

[Hercules56]

Nope. I've made my position clear and dear God repeatedly.

You have way too many pics of male models at your disposal.

Eta: and for God's sake, stop lying.

YOU have stated, that the only transition required in order to use a lady's room, is one has to decide in their own mind that they are now a woman. That's it.

No medical or even social transition required. They can dress like a typical man but use the ladies room as long as in their head they have decided they are a woman.

This is what you have said.

 

[d4m10n]

Access to a public space is in fact an equality issue.

If you look like a dude, you have ready access to the public space where people look like dudes.

Can you please explain why that's not an equitable solution?

Their looks, and if they meet whatever standard you are setting, is not on my radar, no.

I'll take that as an affirmative response. Now that males who look exactly like cisgender men have access to female spaces, are you at all concerned with the people who are made uncomfortable?

Everybody treated fairly. It's a tough needle to thread.

What is exactly unfair about my approach, the one where we expect people who look male to use the room for males?

 

[Elaedith]

Since my stated positions are being ignored to shove words in my mouth for rhetorical convenience, I see no harm/foul in mirroring that back.

Untrue. The Holy 79 offenders statistic has been held up to prove that transwomen are disproportionately violent. It's been thrown up a half dozen times since I've engaged in the discussion.

If it was not assumed the transwomen were honest, the stat would have no meaning. Yet it is ushered forth repeatedly like that box of crackers in a Catholic Church, holy and pure.

Rubbish. The statistics show that males are much more likely to commit violent or sexual offences than females and that males who self-identify as transwomen are like males in offending patterns. If they were more like females than males they would show offending patterns more similar to females. It is irrelevant whether the males who claim to be transwomen genuinely identify as transwomen or are faking it, since they will go to the women's prison regardless under self ID.

 

[Thermal]

Guy here. The showers at my gym are gang/communal. Are there stats on this?

I don't know. I was seriously asking. I've never heard of women showering together in a gym. Nor has my wife (although her reasoning is that if you are trying to get actually clean, a gang shower is likely the worst place to do so).

Communal changing room at my gym.

Do you swing your dick around like a propeller in there to the other guys, or is it kinda low key? The issue is how graphic it is. As I said, I manage to get changed right on a city street without performing a nude pole dance. Is that not the norm?

One should be able to predict the response to this.

Meh. I can predict a few different responses from a few different posters.

 

[Thermal]

YOU have stated, that the only transition required in order to use a lady's room, is one has to decide in their own mind that they are now a woman. That's it.

No medical or even social transition required. They can dress like a typical man but use the ladies room as long as in their head they have decided they are a woman.

This is what you have said.

I did not. You are putting words in my mouth (or don't read well).

 

[Thermal]

If you look like a dude, you have ready access to the public space where people look like dudes.

Can you please explain why that's not an equitable solution?

Do you apply that to women that you don't think look feminine enough? To guys who don't look butch enough?

I mentioned earlier that I saw a young person last year on my block that I couldn't make heads or tails of, sex wise. How does your "spectrum of appearance" gatekeeping work with them?

I'll take that as an affirmative response. Now that males who look exactly like cisgender men have access to female spaces, are you at all concerned with the people who are made uncomfortable?

Of course, which is why I'm not wild about negating sex segregated spaces. But "uncomfortable"? 99.999% of the time, your comfort is your own problem, not the public's.

What is exactly unfair about my approach, the one where we expect people who look male to use the room for males?

Gotta Maleness Paper Bag and security guard at the ready, do ya?

 

[Mycroft]

When a woman says that she perceives the majority of transwomen to have stereotypically male characteristics, she gets branded hateful...

I can understand why that's distressing for you.

Continuing my informal survey, I was able to ask another woman today how she felt about transwomen in woman's bathrooms. She said she didn't care and was absolutely certain we were talking about people born with penises and who might still have a penis.

My errand today was a Doctor's appointment, the woman I spoke with is a medical professional, if that matters.

She then spoke about how sometimes trans-people are reluctant to disclose their gender assigned at birth and we agreed as a medical issue their medical providers should be aware.

She then spoke about the dangers of trans-women being placed in male prisons. It turns out one of her relatives is a prison guard who said it put the guards in danger in addition to the trans-woman. When I brought up the opposing point of view of transwomen being a danger to other women in a woman's prison, she and I agreed that sometimes life is complex and easy answers are rare.

I have another appointment tomorrow, we'll see if I have more opportunity to continue my poll.

 

[d4m10n]

Do you apply that to women that you don't think look feminine enough? To guys who don't look butch enough?

How about we address the cases where people are obviously male or female first, before progressing to the very rare cases which present as ambiguous?

I mentioned earlier that I saw a young person last year on my block that I couldn't make heads or tails of, sex wise. How does your "spectrum of appearance" gatekeeping work with them?

I don't care where they go, but how about we address the cases where people are obviously male or female first?

99.999% of the time, your comfort is your own problem, not the public's.

This would be an hilarious response to give someone upset about an erection at the ladies' spa.

Gotta Maleness Paper Bag and security guard at the ready, do ya?

How about we address the cases where people are obviously male or female first?

 

[Thermal]

I can understand why that's distressing for you.

Continuing my informal survey, I was able to ask another woman today how she felt about transwomen in woman's bathrooms. She said she didn't care and was absolutely certain we were talking about people born with penises and who might still have a penis.

My errand today was a Doctor's appointment, the woman I spoke with is a medical professional, if that matters.

She then spoke about how sometimes trans-people are reluctant to disclose their gender assigned at birth and we agreed as a medical issue their medical providers should be aware.

She then spoke about the dangers of trans-women being placed in male prisons. It turns out one of her relatives is a prison guard who said it put the guards in danger in addition to the trans-woman. When I brought up the opposing point of view of transwomen being a danger to other women in a woman's prison, she and I agreed that sometimes life is complex and easy answers are rare.

I have another appointment tomorrow, we'll see if I have more opportunity to continue my poll.

I've seen one fairly consistent pattern: men and women IME usually answer with support, or 'don't care', except those with those red baseball caps. They don't want to hear about it.

 

[d4m10n]

I've seen one fairly consistent pattern: men and women IME usually answer with support, or 'don't care', except those with those red baseball caps.

*taps signature*

 

[Thermal]

How about we address the cases where people are obviously male or female first, before progressing to the very rare cases which present as ambiguous?

I don't care where they go, but how about we address the cases where people are obviously male or female first?

Why? People go where they go, almost always in what we would consider the right room. I don't evaluate their admission standard, and don't intend to start today.

This would be an hilarious response to give someone upset about an erection at the ladies' spa.

Which, since most people aren't hanging out nude at the ladies spa at a given moment which is frequented by pervs, is probably in that percentage, yeah.

 

[Thermal]

*taps signature*

*taps mobile device that doesn't display signatures*