Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Mycroft]

I'd ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ leave. Why wouldn't I? Someone desperately needs privacy, ya give it to them without ado. That goes for anyone, anywhere, not even trans related.

A cis-woman should leave if asked too.

 

[Elaedith]

What was the operative definition of transwoman? Someone who has physically transitioned? Or anyone who self-declares?

Do you distinguish? Do you consider anyone who self-declares as a woman?

Trans activists' definition of a transwoman is a circular one. A woman is anyone who identifies as a woman.
The entire basis of modern transactivism from around the last 10-15 years is a shift from understanding a trans person as somebody who has gender dysphoria and decides to transition because they are unhappy with their sex (an explanation that had an evidence base albeit a sketchy one), to an idea that sex itself is socially constructed and should be replaced with self-identified gender (an ideological position with no evidence base, originating from postmodernist ideas that are not compatible with science).
Going along with this idea is the view that you do not need to have gender dysphoria to be trans, you do not need to transition in any way whatsoever to be trans, nobody can tell what sex/gender anyone is by looking at them, and all forms of sex segregation must be eliminated or replaced with self-identified gender segregation. Anything based on gender segregation cannot involve gatekeeping of any form, because that would require that others impose an assumption about what sex somebody is based on appearance.

Activists have concealed this shift by by framing disagreement with the new dogma as a moral panic and an attempt to take away existing rights, in which they are helped by endless useful idiots. Ironically they are contributing to making this come true due to the inevitable backlash.

 

[Elaedith]

By the same token, I don't think the overwhelming majority of transwomen are... you know... like other males. They are self declared at the feminine end of the spectrum. The one I am closest to is definitely indistinguishable from any other woman, in appearance and behavior.

When a woman says that she perceives the majority of transwomen to have stereotypically male characteristics, she gets branded hateful. When we post statistical evidence that transwomen have male offending patterns, you throw a temper tantrum over an obvious typo and never address the data except to imply that it's bigoted to provide it. Why exactly should anyone care what you think based on no evidence other than an anecdote?

 

[Thermal]

When a woman says that she perceives the majority of transwomen to have stereotypically male characteristics, she gets branded hateful.

When in the next breath, you say there are no female characteristics. And you don't even notice that.

When we post statistical evidence that transwomen have male offending patterns, you throw a temper tantrum over an obvious typo and never address the data except to imply that it's bigoted to providethar.

Two points: the data was compiled by a lousy 79 transwoman inmates out of a country of 69million. Statistically insignificant, by like the proverbial one in a million range. Oh, and since you assert transwomen are "faking" themselves being trans so often, by what standard are these violent transwomen suddenly assumed to be so honest and not faking it? Serious question.

Second, I genuinely didn't know what SC's stat was supposed to really say. You have what he meant tattooed on your arm for frequent reciting, but I don't. Any word could have been wrong from my reading. I had no clue which he meant, and was annoyed with being lectured about "Facts" that evidently weren't even read by the author, even after seperatingbtge nonsensical "facts" from the post and spelling it out twice.

Why exactly should anyone care what you think based on no evidence other than an anecdote?

Honest people engage in honest discussion and debate. Dishonest people genuinely shouldn't care.

Why should anyone care about you being pissy and personal when the rest of us are trying to get an understanding?

 

[d4m10n]

Some men, too. Whether the agreement is reasonable or... let's say less so... has perpetuated this ongoing discussion.

I'm not remotely comfortable with giving males too much say in this discussion. Those spaces weren't created for us and judging by how often we've required lengthy womansplanations about how they are used (see, e.g., every previous instance of this thread) we aren't terribly qualified to make decisions about how those spaces ought to be reformed to include people for whom they were not originally designed.

Back to the meta question: is privacy from anyone born male (although trans now) a desperate need for them to go away?

Quick question: When does "trans now" start in your mind? Do they need to pass at all as the opposite sex?

I've seen some pretty butch-looking fully intact males who claim to be women in the gender-free bathrooms at Skepticon, individuals who were (at that time) completely indistinguishable from their cisgender peers. Happily, I'm entirely used to sharing a bathroom with males.

My position is that we ought to use the restrooms where we raise the fewest eyebrows, for the sake of avoiding general discomfiture. If I woke up tomorrow looking just like my sister, I'd use the ladies room out of politeness to all concerned. This is at odds with self-i.d. (of course) since I would still think myself a man at least until it became obvious that the magic spell was irreversible.

 

[Elaedith]

When in the next breath, you say there are no female characteristics. And you don't even notice that.

I have never said 'there are no female characteristics'. You are inventing stuff again.

Honest people engage in honest discussion and debate. Dishonest people genuinely shouldn't care.

'Honest discussion and debate' is laughable given the number of lies you have told.

 

[Thermal]

I'm not remotely comfortable with giving males too much say in this discussion.

Eeeeehhhh... I'm not remotely comfortable excluding one sex when it affects everyone. Smartcooky has a lot to say as a father who protects his family, and I respect that. More to the point, we are all affected by it to different degrees. When we talk about equal rights in any context, it's all hands on deck.

Quick question: When does "trans now" start in your mind? Do they need to pass at all as the opposite sex?

Good question. I think it starts in their own soul searching, and any effort to "pass" to anyone else's standard is no different from a biker bar saying you or I don't look tough enough to enter.

My position is that we ought to use the restrooms where we raise the fewest eyebrows, for the sake of avoiding general discomfiture.

I think that would be very courteous, but not enforceable. If a masculine built transwoman in regularly harassed and beaten in the men's room, does she have any "comfort" claim, that might outweigh women who just don't like the idea?

 

[Thermal]

I have never said 'there are no female characteristics'. You are inventing stuff again.

Many on "your side" have been arguing that quite vehemently. It may not have been you specifically, conceded.

'Honest discussion and debate' is laughable given the number of lies you have told.

Ironically, that's a lie. You simply keep repeating it over and over. I guess you think it makes you sound more convincing with repetition?

You were right on one thig: I linked Lawrence's paper early on, and didn't intend to. I must have had a bunch of tabs open and ctrl-c-ed the wrong one. My bad.

 

[Rolfe]

If men are harassing and beating men in the men's room, that is for men to sort out. It's not our problem. Although this seems to be so rare as to be virtually nonexistent, certainly compared to the well documented cases of trans identifying men attacking women in the women's room, but we're told that these are mere anecdotes and should never be used as justification for keeping men out of the women's room.

Double standards, much?

 

[Thermal]

Its more interesting to hear why you are so willing to allow transwomen to be hurt. I kinda want everybody to be happy. Except the bigots and those endorsing bigoted justifications.

 

[Matthew Best]

Where are these transwomen getting hurt? Do you have any statistics for this?

 

[Rolfe]

Where's the evidence that trans identifying men are "regularly harassed and beaten" in the men's room?

Bearing in mind that actual evidence of women being assaulted by trans identifying men in the women's room was handwaved away.

 

[Thermal]

Where are these transwomen getting hurt? Do you have any statistics for this?

You can refer to any of the national and international violence against transgender peoples databases. No, I don't memorize this ◊◊◊◊ because I don't live and breathe it. Kind of like I know there are slightly more than 50% females interested population, but damned if I remember where I read that.

 

[Thermal]

Where's the evidence that trans identifying men are "regularly harassed and beaten" in the men's room?

Bearing in mind that actual evidence of women being assaulted by trans identifying men in the women's room was handwaved away.

It was not. It was shown to be 79 offenders in the one in a million range, from one country, which we are supposed to extrapolate to all the world.

And in case you missed it: you claim transwomen are posers. What is your evidence that your oh so holy statistic that you rely so much on were not these theorized imposters?

 

[Matthew Best]

You can refer to any of the national and international violence against transgender peoples databases. No, I don't memorize this ◊◊◊◊ because I don't live and breathe it. Kind of like I know there are slightly more than 50% females interested population, but damned if I remember where I read that.

Your claim, your burden of proof.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm not remotely comfortable excluding one sex when it affects everyone.

How exactly does allowing males into (formerly) female spaces affect those of us who utilize male spaces?

Smartcooky has a lot to say as a father who protects his family, and I respect that.

I'd much rather listen to his daughter in her own words, given the chance.

More to the point, we are all affected by it to different degrees.

I'm not directly affected at all and I trust my wife and daughter to speak up for their own interests.

When we talk about equal rights in any context, it's all hands on deck.

Equality isn't really the efficient move here; women are not demanding an equal number of urinals and men are not demanding an equal number of disposal bins for menstrual products.

I think it starts in their own soul searching, and any effort to "pass" to anyone else's standard is no different from a biker bar saying you or I don't look tough enough to enter.

You want males who look exactly like cisgender men to have access to female spaces for the sake of "equal rights," correct?

I think that would be very courteous, but not enforceable.

It is certainly no less enforceable than sorting by self-i.d. since anyone capable of lying can falsely claim to identify as the opposite sex and we are all capable of lying at times.

If a masculine built transwoman in regularly harassed and beaten in the men's room, does she have any "comfort" claim, that might outweigh women who just don't like the idea?

If we lived in a society like that, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

That said, I find it bizarre that you value the comfort of unnamed hypothetical people over that of women who are actually participating here.

 

[theprestige]

You can refer to any of the national and international violence against transgender peoples databases. No, I don't memorize this ◊◊◊◊ because I don't live and breathe it. Kind of like I know there are slightly more than 50% females interested population, but damned if I remember where I read that.

Those databases (or whatever they are, because you don't remember exactly) have been referred to repeatedly in this thread. It turns out they don't say what you've been told they said. This, too, has been belabored repeatedly in this thread.

That's one of the huge problems with trans rights discourse right now, and a huge win for trans rights activism: the general impression in popular culture, that certain things have been researched, and that they have been told the truth about those things. Even though they have only the vaguest recollection of what that research might have been, and no idea at all if it reached the conclusions they vaguely remember being told were true.

 

[smartcooky]

'Honest discussion and debate' is laughable given the number of lies you have told.

Quoted for truth!!

 

[Rolfe]

Also repeatedly dismissing those arguing the contrary position as bigots and haters.

 

[Thermal]

Those databases (or whatever they are, because you don't remember exactly) have been referred to repeatedly in this thread. It turns out they don't say what you've been told they said. This, too, has been belabored repeatedly in this thread.

That's one of the huge problems with trans rights discourse right now, and a huge win for trans rights activism: the general impression in popular culture, that certain things have been researched, and that they have been told the truth about those things. Even though they have only the vaguest recollection of what that research might have been, and no idea at all if it reached the conclusions they vaguely remember being told were true.

I'll cop to that. We were discussing on another thread recently about getting an erroneous idea in your head and holding it as true for years

Regarding what has been "belaboredly repeated" in this thread, keep in mind: search is down, and it ain't no trivial task to find old posts on a thread this size. The stat gets thrown up over and over and over is the British one with 79 trans sex offenders out of a population of 69 million. Comparing with the US, I would need to find about 300 transgender people assaulted to be comparable. Do you really think we couldn't do that, and more?