Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

[Mycroft]

Luchog's partner deadrose (also a forum member) passed away, and hasn't posted much since.

That's sad. Thank you for telling me.

 

[Ziggurat]

It has to be attributes only women have?

If these are attributes that some men have, then having them doesn't make transwomen women instead of men. This is basic logic. Do you not understand anything about categories?

Does clothing not count

No, it doesn't.

Jewlry, makeup and hair doesn’t count because men use these things too?

Yes. Obviously.

I think you’re trying to make yourself a gate-keeper of people who are not asking you.

I'm not the one saying that only women can wear a dress or makeup, you are. You're gatekeeping male behavior, not me.

It’s not your job to define what makes a woman for someone else

If you want to come up with your own personal definition, have at it. I'm not the one trying to force new definitions down people's throats. But if you want to use your personal definition to enforce public policy, sorry, you don't get to do that on your own.

You want to define trans-people out of existence.

Yet more straw. I want nothing of the sort. Transwomen not being women doesn't mean that they don't exist. That's just stupid.

I was going to make a list, but now I don’t think I need to. I’m not trying to be a gatekeeper, you are.

A predictable copout.

 

[d4m10n]

I don't even understand how you're extrapolating these things.

As a fan of women's rugby, I'll try to explain.

I want to see the sport exist and succeed, but in order for that to happen there needs to be clear inclusion criteria for who gets to play in any given league. At the top level of the sport, the criteria are pretty clear and essentially rooted in whether the individual player experienced a masculinizing puberty or a feminizing puberty. This is gatekeeping, without which there can be no female category of any sport.

The men's category also has some gatekeeping, but it is typically by age (and occasionally residency/nationality) and that's not a hotly contested cultural issue right at the moment, since there isn't a strong constituency for over 20-y.o.'s who identify as under 20.

If you want to take a stand against all the gatekeeping, please feel free, but it would be better to forthrightly admit that you're okay with at least some gatekeeping on either sex or gender.

 

[Mycroft]

Feelings and actions aren't the same. Regardless of how they feel, there are plenty of transwomen who don't actually act like women, they act like men playing an over the top parody of women (Dylan Mulvaney comes to mind).

Or sometimes, they just act like men. There's a clip of Ben Shapiro on some debate, sitting next to a transwoman, and I think Ben used masculine pronouns for the transwoman. And the transwoman got pissed, grabbed Ben by the back of the neck, and physically threatened Ben. Now, I do not know how this transwoman felt. But I saw how he acted. And he acted like a man, not like a woman. And all those twitter transwomen telling people to suck their lady dicks? Yeah, that's very male behavior too. Admittedly, this isn't a statistically representative sample, but it's still very much a thing.

Weren't you just about to make the point there is no behavior that is uniquely womanly? Well, the same is true for masculine traits.

Women sometimes start fights. Maybe not so much the women in your circle, but some women certainly.

 

[Mycroft]

As a fan of women's rugby, I'll try to explain.

I want to see the sport exist and succeed, but in order for that to happen there needs to be clear inclusion criteria for who gets to play in any given league. At the top level of the sport, the criteria are pretty clear and essentially rooted in whether the individual player experienced a masculinizing puberty or a feminizing puberty. This is gatekeeping, without which there can be no female category of any sport.

I assume they've chosen that criteria based on valid statistics and science.

I wasn't part of that decision making, so how is this gatekeeping attributed to me?

Would you stop watching if they included some transwomen who did experience a masculine puberty?

 

[Ziggurat]

Women sometimes start fights. Maybe not so much the women in your circle, but some women certainly.

Sure, that sometimes happens. But you're the one appealing to stereotyped behavior, not me. I'm just showing you why that approach fails.

 

[smartcooky]

Yeah, I get lazy when other people want to send me on their errands.

FFS! Zig was NOT asking you to go on his errand. When YOU are asked to justify YOUR position on something its is YOUR responsibility to do so. If you don't want to, you don't get to just handwave it all away without being called out for your behaviour.

 

[Mycroft]

If these are attributes that some men have, then having them doesn't make transwomen women instead of men. This is basic logic. Do you not understand anything about categories?

I think it’s weird you claim I can’t list feminine traits while you’re listing masculine traits. It’s inconsistent.

No, it doesn't.

Yes. Obviously.

I disagree. There are such things as women’s clothing, makeup and jewelry. That they’re just as available to men doesn’t make them not-feminine.

I'm not the one saying that only women can wear a dress or makeup, you are. You're gatekeeping male behavior, not me.

Nope. I never said that. I even specifically gave an example of a man wearing a dress.

If you want to come up with your own personal definition, have at it. I'm not the one trying to force new definitions down people's throats. But if you want to use your personal definition to enforce public policy, sorry, you don't get to do that on your own.

Neither do you?

Yet more straw. I want nothing of the sort. Transwomen not being women doesn't mean that they don't exist. That's just stupid.

They exist but no definition works. Gotcha.

A predictable copout.

If you’re getting this angry you should take a break.

 

[Mycroft]

Sure, that sometimes happens. But you're the one appealing to stereotyped behavior, not me. I'm just showing you why that approach fails.

Yet I don't agree it fails. You point out masculine behavior, label it as masculine, then deny the existence of masculine/feminine behavior. You don't make sense.

 

[smartcooky]

Wow! They do all that just by existing?

Clearly your emotions are very strong on this issue



Not all women hate transwomen the way you do. I’m sorry you feel the way you do, but not everybody, not every woman, shares your feelings.

I imagine feelings were similar when bathrooms were integrated.

Now you're just being patronizing. That is a dick move (pun intended).

You're saying that women's desires to have sex-segregated private and safe-spaces are in effect hatred. That is a TRA talking point!

 

[Rolfe]

That's certainly more than I would expect, but still not very often.

Would the result have changed significantly if a trans-woman were peeing a few stalls over?

Mycroft, you have no idea at all what sort of things happen in women's bathrooms or how frequently. (Despite women in this thread describing these things several times.) Menstrual accidents happen a lot, and the consequences often can't be dealt with in a cubicle either. You also have no conception of how it feels to be female and subject to such accidents, and the security and reassurance of knowing that there is a female only space one can go to IF it happens. This goes double for young teenage girls who are just starting to learn how to deal with having periods.

Would any result change significantly if a transwoman simply went to the men's room to pee?

You seem to me to have an idée fixe that men who declare a trans identity are literally women, which you can't explain or defend in any coherent way, it's just something you have decided is true. And following on from this you have also decided that whatever these men want, they must have, and to hell with what any woman thinks about it. Always, the desires of the man must be elevated over the desires of the women.

Can you not see how misogynistic this is?

Even those of you who declare that they just want everyone to be comfortable and happy, you need to face the fact that that is not possible. If women want spaces without any men, and some men want to be able to go into any space dedicated to women, who loses out? Will it be the comparatively small number of men, or the 51% of the population who are women? Logic might say, the comfort of the greatest number. But when it's men who are discussing it, surprise! It's the women who lose out again. There's also the matter of what is the status quo ante? These spaces were women-only, and women had the right to ask any man they saw in them to leave, or be ejected. Now, without consultation and without a risk assessment, we're being told that men have the right to be there and any woman who asks one to leave is a bigot at best and possibly about to be charged with a hate crime. And we're expected to accept this with no push-back?

 

[Pixel42]

I'm taking Mycroft's wilful misrepresentation of everything I said as an admission that he cannot logically justify his assertion that transwomen are a subset of women.

 

[d4m10n]

I assume they've chosen that criteria based on valid statistics and science.

Correct.

Would you stop watching if they included some transwomen who did experience a masculine puberty?

Probably, yes. It would take some joy out of the sport to know that the field is uneven by design.

I wasn't part of that decision making, so how is this gatekeeping attributed to me?

I'm not saying you are a gatekeeper, I'm saying that gatekeeping shouldn't automatically be considered taboo and that you probably already tolerate it in all sorts of activities which make distinctions about who is included.

Gatekeeping is almost everywhere, from sports leagues to parking lots to citizenship qualifications to social programs.

Marjorie (@girlmomnh)

I can’t “identify” as 12 years old and play on the kids soccer team. I can’t “identify” as handicapped and take all the sweet parking spaces. I can’t “identify” as French and get EU citizenship. I can’t “identify” as Sioux and demand a share of casino proceeds. I can’t “identify” as retired...

substack.com

 

[Mycroft]

Mycroft, you have no idea at all what sort of things happen in women's bathrooms or how frequently. (Despite women in this thread describing these things several times.) Menstrual accidents happen a lot, and the consequences often can't be dealt with in a cubicle either. You also have no conception of how it feels to be female and subject to such accidents, and the security and reassurance of knowing that there is a female only space one can go to IF it happens. This goes double for young teenage girls who are just starting to learn how to deal with having periods.

Would any result change significantly if a transwoman simply went to the men's room to pee?

You seem to me to have an idée fixe that men who declare a trans identity are literally women, which you can't explain or defend in any coherent way, it's just something you have decided is true. And following on from this you have also decided that whatever these men want, they must have, and to hell with what any woman thinks about it. Always, the desires of the man must be elevated over the desires of the women.

Can you not see how misogynistic this is?

Even those of you who declare that they just want everyone to be comfortable and happy, you need to face the fact that that is not possible. If women want spaces without any men, and some men want to be able to go into any space dedicated to women, who loses out? Will it be the comparatively small number of men, or the 51% of the population who are women? Logic might say, the comfort of the greatest number. But when it's men who are discussing it, surprise! It's the women who lose out again. There's also the matter of what is the status quo ante? These spaces were women-only, and women had the right to ask any man they saw in them to leave, or be ejected. Now, without consultation and without a risk assessment, we're being told that men have the right to be there and any woman who asks one to leave is a bigot at best and possibly about to be charged with a hate crime. And we're expected to accept this with no push-back?

You and I disagree on what it means to be a woman only space.

You want to portray this as misogynist men versus women, but women who aren't anti-trans have no problem with transwomen using the bathroom. This issue is clearly not men vs women, but conservative versus liberal.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm taking Mycroft's wilful misrepresentation of everything I said as an admission that he cannot logically justify his assertion that transwomen are a subset of women.

Lol!

I don't think I misrepresented you at all, but nice try in just declaring victory.

 

[Mycroft]

I'm not saying you are a gatekeeper, I'm saying that gatekeeping shouldn't automatically be considered taboo and that you probably already tolerate it in all sorts of activities which make distinctions about who is included.

The overall discussion is about gatekeeping. My statement is I personally don't need to gatekeep about who is trans. You're interjection doesn't seem to have anything to do with that.

 

[Rolfe]

You and I disagree on what it means to be a woman only space.

You want to portray this as misogynist men versus women, but women who aren't anti-trans have no problem with transwomen using the bathroom. This issue is clearly not men vs women, but conservative versus liberal.

And for those of us with the good fortune not to be American?

 

[Mycroft]

And for those of us with the good fortune not to be American?

Feel free to educate me about the politics of your country, just don't pretend it's misogynist men versus women when all the women I ask are not bothered by transwomen in women's public bathrooms.

 

[smartcooky]

As a fan of women's rugby, I'll try to explain.

I want to see the sport exist and succeed, but in order for that to happen there needs to be clear inclusion criteria for who gets to play in any given league. At the top level of the sport, the criteria are pretty clear and essentially rooted in whether the individual player experienced a masculinizing puberty or a feminizing puberty. This is gatekeeping, without which there can be no female category of any sport.

The men's category also has some gatekeeping, but it is typically by age (and occasionally residency/nationality) and that's not a hotly contested cultural issue right at the moment, since there isn't a strong constituency for over 20-y.o.'s who identify as under 20.

If you want to take a stand against all the gatekeeping, please feel free, but it would be better to forthrightly admit that you're okay with at least some gatekeeping on either sex or gender.

Rugby is a collision sport so brutal that allowing transwomen into women's rugby would pretty much end the sport. Just one half-decent tackle on any woman by what is essentially a strong, super-fit male would injure, probably severely, or possibly hospitalize her. Player safety is the reason that transwomen are effectively banned from women's rugby.

 

[Rolfe]

Feel free to educate me about the politics of your country, just don't pretend it's misogynist men versus women when all the women I ask are not bothered by transwomen in women's public bathrooms.

In my country it's a whole army of left-wing women up in arms because they believe their political party has got it wrong and is betraying them. Including me. (Former political party, in my case. Ironically, while fanatically championing the trans cause, my former party is also moving to the right with indecent haste.)