Transwomen are not Women - Part 15

Mind tossing in a few nouns and verbs to clarify what the hell you are talking about?

I can find no reporting of dem tranny freaks or poser tranny freaks attacking anyone anywhere in my wide open state. No twitter reporting of it, or complaining of coverups, pretty much nothing. What you assert as a horrific and inevitable certainty of perverted hordes kinda looks like it ain't happening in this rather large petri dish over here.

Your language is becoming very hyperbolic again. I can see nobody talking about "tranny freaks" but you.

Think again about self-exclusion and why that might actually be a very big thing that isn't picked up by your simplistic world-view.
 
Because if the concern is the assumption of rape by males, that laudable concern would stretch across the culture, not be restricted to transwomen.
It *does* stretch across the culture. We routinely exclude males from spaces where females are naked or vulnerable. And that isn't restricted to transwomen - all we're doing is clarifying that transwomen are still males.
 
I don't. I am paraphrasing literally every female I am close enough to talk about this with, including my kids and wife and her friends and our families.

I really am finding it harder to understand the couple of vocal posters here who are screaming out a very different perspective (while claiming it is representative) than literally every other female I see anywhere.

I just wonder if there is some self-exclusion going on there too. I know I for one would feel very inhibited in expressing my real feelings to someone as self-righteous and judgmental on the TRA side as yourself. But even if there isn't, the parochial perspectives of one small town somewhere in America are not of sufficient weight to justify imposing their mores on the entire world, where enormous numbers of people have an entirely different view of the matter.
 
Pretty sure actual rapists have been ignoring signs for generations untold. If they hadn't, "No Raping" signs would have reduced the offense level to zero long ago.
Look, can we set aside the entire rape discussion? It's an artificial limitation, and it elides one of the actual material problems: voyeurism and exhibitionism.
 
It *does* stretch across the culture. We routinely exclude males from spaces where females are naked or vulnerable. And that isn't restricted to transwomen - all we're doing is clarifying that transwomen are still males.

It's also not only about the risk of sexual assault. We don't let males who are the sweetest guys on the planet into women's spaces either. (But of course these men are not trying to get in.) It's about propriety, decency, comfort and modesty. And not just for women with particular reason to be wary of men, or for women of certain religious groups who are prohibited from being in the presence of men in these situations. Most women don't want men in their toilets, changing rooms, showers or dormitories, whether or not there is any chance that these men might assault them. And "transwomen" are males, are men.
 
We basically have the same position regarding sex segregated spaces. My argument is that all y'all's arguments suck moose cock, not that I disagree with the endgame. I'm asking you to trow these half-assed fig leaves aside and honestly say why you think transwomen should be denied everything including simple forms of address.
Transwomen should be denied the fiction of being female, nothing more. They should be free to dress and present however they wish, without harassment or harm.
When I first got active here, I was assured that the issue was women being raped, assaulted, and indeed murdered by the tranny hordes. Since transgender access to restrooms has been accepted in many western countries, I asked about the stats, broad brush. Turned out that there was no increase in violent crimes.
First off, no it hasn't been accepted. In some areas it has been *mandated* over the very loud objections of the majority of female citizens. And it continues to be objected to and challenged every single day because we females did NOT consent to it at all. Often, the decision was made by one set of males to allow a different set of males to override female boundaries on the basis of magic words.

Secondly, yes there has too been an increase in violent crimes - sexual assaults in female spaces has increased. Funny that such things don't get reported though, because the prevailing narrative is that reporting this would be transphobic, right?
 
Oh, I gotchu fam, even though it was literally spelled out in words a child could understand:

I questioned you and others directly and repeatedly about where you were getting your somewhat whacky beliefs about AGP, since they didn't align with the available literature. I was met with an awkward silence by all of its advocates here. Finally, you presented a link without saying what it contained. It contained a letter/article that had been posted on a website.

The letter contains no original research, and only refers to other research tangentally. Their bald assertions about AGP are unsupported, and frequently factually wrong. So... it's basically an opinion piece, unless the author is a well-accredited expert in the field? So I looked up at the authors' names. Lo and behold, the lead is a well-known crank. I found it hilarious. I was literally crying.

Oh, and regarding your assertion that those were ad homs? Wrong again. I do not say the letter is not credible because it's author is a known crank. I say it lacks any factual support, and its author is a laughingstock. It was just funny as hell that of all people, that's who you would pick.
I don't know what the ◊◊◊◊ you're talking about either, Thermal.

Like, which author? What evidence of being a crank? The saw blade thing sounds made up and I can't make google give me anything useful. So yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
That is a blatantly dishonest description of the incident. It took place in a guest lecture that was linked to Bailey's course on human sexuality but was not a required part of the course, and attendance was entirely optional. All attendees were over 18 and warned beforehand about the sexually-explicit content. In any case, it has nothing to with the the validity of any of Bailey's research or arguments.

It is very clear that you know nothing at all about this area.
Also, Bailey didn't construct the device in question - it was brought by a guest lecturer.
 
I don't know what the ◊◊◊◊ you're talking about either, Thermal.

Like, which author? What evidence of being a crank? The saw blade thing sounds made up and I can't make google give me anything useful. So yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about.
The lead author, J Michael Bailey. Or first of the two authors listed, however you want to say 'the first human name visible on the page'.

And ithe 'indiscretion' is on his Wikipedia page, also linked. No, it wasn't made up, it was very widely reported. His school very publicly acknowledges the whole disturbing thing, as he does.
 
I don't know what the ◊◊◊◊ you're talking about either, Thermal.

Like, which author? What evidence of being a crank? The saw blade thing sounds made up and I can't make google give me anything useful. So yeah, I have no idea what you're talking about.
This is the psychology professor Thermal thinks is not a well-accredited expert in the field (with 192 publications in peer-reviewed journals and 13, 685 citations).


Thermal also believes all the lies produced by activists when they attempted to destroy Bailey (including the ones they supplied to SPLC) as documented in Dreger's account, and also invented a few of his own:

The Controversy Surrounding The Man Who Would Be Queen: A Case History of the Politics of Science, Identity, and Sex in the Internet Age

In addition, Thermal apparently believes that the fact that few people dare to express support for or undertake any further research on the Bailey/Blanchard model is that the model is rubbish, rather than that they are scared of being targeted by activists as Bailey and others were.

 
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No, it doesn't. It really, really doesn't. Just that the usual story told to high school children is a simplification.

Say it doesn't a couple more times. Add some exclamation points too. It makes your argument stronger.
 
You just declare it's not part of the debate. I disagree.

It shows biology is more complex than men are men and women are women.
You are being dishonest. Again, almost no transpeople have DSD's. To the extent that people with DSD's represent anything "intersex" (and they almost never do, they are still overwhelmingly clearly male or female), they are irrelevant to the issue of transpeople. This debate has NOTHING to do with DSD's. It is ENTIRELY about how to treat developmentally normal males and females who want to be treated as if they are the other sex, to what extent the rest of society is obligated to do so, and how much of a difference various degrees of "transition" should affect that.

You have failed to address any of these questions in a meaningful manner.
 
I can't tell you how much I loathe males declaring what females should have to tolerate, with no consideration for female's views at all.

And the ever present, much ignored question remains: How the heck are females supposed to know whether the male-bodied person who just sauntered into our locker room has their wedding tackle or not?






Polls show that on average women are more accepting of transgender women in female bathrooms.
 
This is the psychology professor Thermal thinks is not a well-accredited expert in the field (with 192 publications in peer-reviewed journals and 13, 685 citations).
Elaedith, please stop. I know he is very accredited in his field. Many experts are brilliant in their field, yet still absolute yahoos if they take a step out of their lane, Linus Pauling being the classic poster boy.
Thermal also believes all the lies produced by activists when they attempted to destroy Bailey (including the ones they supplied to SPLC) as documented in Dreger's account, and also invented a few of his own:
No, that's just a conspiracy theory on your part. As I'm sure you well know, The Man Who Would Be Queen was met with scathing criticism, which was predictable, but as I haven't read it, I make no comment. It may well be that his findings were sound, but unacceptable to the trans community. But you are 100% in tin foil hat territory to insist that trans activists took over the Southern Poverty Law Center. His membership in HIB was real, as were the other white supremacist and anti Semitic eugenics-dedicated members.
In addition, Thermal apparently believes that the fact that few people dare to express support for or undertake any further research on the Bailey/Blanchard model is that the model is rubbish, rather than that they are scared of being targeted by activists as Bailey and others were.
More tin foil hattery. Scientists and researchers generally go with the data. No one else is finding what the three musketeers so desperately insist that we take as gospel. As long as their work on AGP is largely put on the crank shelf (and don't forget Blanchard actually gave input to DSM-5, who he couldn't convince to accept his zany postulates),then I'm not taking them that seriously either. When their work on the subject gets some peer acceptance (after decades being well-publicized), I'll be happy to defer to the experts.
 
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Again, that's what the argument is about. Stating your position as a conclusion without offering any supporting evidence is lazy and doesn't prove anything.
What evidence is there to present? It's definitional. Seriously, what do you think the word "male" even means? It's one thing to try to invest "woman" and "man" with cultural meaning separated from biology, but "male" and "female" are exclusively biological. "Sex change" operations don't actually change your sex, even if they give the cosmetic appearance of having done so.
 
Elaedith, please stop. I know he is very accredited in his field. Many experts are brilliant in their field, yet still absolute yahoos if they take a step out of their lane, Linus Pauling being the classic poster boy.
No I am not going to stop. And he didn't 'step out of his lane'.
No, that's just a conspiracy theory on your part. As I'm sure you well know, The Man Who Would Be Queen was met with scathing criticism, which was predictable, but as I haven't read it, I make no comment. It may well be that his findings were sound, but unacceptable to the trans community. But you are 100% in tin foil hat territory to insist that trans activists took over the Southern Poverty Law Center. His membership in HIB was real, as were the other white supremacist and anti Semitic eugenics-dedicated members.
The supply of false information by trans activists that Bailey supported eugenics to eliminate gay people to the SPLC is documented in Dreger's account. The piece by SPLC includes all the lies that were cooked up by activists as part of their campaign. He was on a listserv discussion list which included a wide range of people including Pinker and a number of other prominent evolutionary psychologists, presumably to discuss scientific issues (you know, that thing researchers are supposed to do rather than morally grandstand and focus on being popular and socially acceptable).
More tin foil hattery. Scientists and researchers generally go with the data. No one else is finding what the three musketeers so desperately insist that we take as gospel. As long as their work on AGP is largely put on the crank shelf (and don't forget Blanchard actually gave input to DSM-5, who he couldn't convince to accept his zany postulates),then I'm not taking them that seriously either. When their work on the subject gets some peer acceptance (after decades being well-publicized), I'll be happy to defer to the experts.
No one is finding anything because nobody can do research on approaches that offend activists. If you were in any sense a genuine skeptic, you would be focusing your concern on that, the same way as if people couldn't conduct research that offended scientologists, creationists, or anyone else.
 






Polls show that on average women are more accepting of transgender women in female bathrooms.

America. Weird place. Maybe has some catching up to do. Here's a British survey from 2020. Looks good for the trannies, yes?

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But then they asked again in 2024 and it was a bit of a different story.

1744052586000.png

And the way this is going, as more people come into contact with this insanity in real life, or become better-informed about what's actually going on, everything will probably turn purple by 2030.

There's another poll I could probably find if I have to where respondents were asked a bald question about "transgender rights" early on, and the majority, especially woman, did the #bekind thing they think is expected of them and gave the green light to this marginalised minority. Then later, very specific questions were asked, describing exactly the situations the respondents were being asked to agree to, and the answers, from the same people on the same day, were again markedly different. Women who had been happy to say yes to a relatively undefined question (remember, a significant proportion of the general public think a transwoman is a woman pretending to be a man) did a complete 180 when asked a question that made it quite clear what they were agreeing to with a yes answer.
 
No I am not going to stop. And he didn't 'step out of his lane'.

The supply of false information by trans activists that Bailey supported eugenics to eliminate gay people to the SPLC is documented in Dreger's account. The piece by SPLC includes all the lies that were cooked up by activists as part of their campaign. He was on a listserv discussion list which included a wide range of people including Pinker and a number of other prominent evolutionary psychologists, presumably to discuss scientific issues (you know, that thing researchers are supposed to do rather than morally grandstand and focus on being popular and socially acceptable).

No one is finding anything because nobody can do research on approaches that offend activists. If you were in any sense a genuine skeptic, you would be focusing your concern on that, the same way as if people couldn't conduct research that offended scientologists, creationists, or anyone else.
I do consider it from a skeptics point of view. That's exactly how I arrived at the conclusion. Their postulate on AGP is by their own admission not evidenced. It's their postulate, that they are enamored with. When they (or anyone else) can come up with evidence and replicate findings, great. That's what skeptics value.

Till then, tin foil hattery remains unpersuasive. You might be charmed with it, and think everyone in the scientific community is cowed by trans activists on Twitter. They are not. They rely on sound findings, which the three musketeers freely acknowledge they ain't got.
 

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