Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[acbytesla]

In Australia, EV's are usually at about the same price (or in some cases cheaper) than an equivalent sized ICER- and thats today- not in a decades time...

Hydrogen is a non starter- at least for anything that can be used with EV- the changeover costs for a existing servo from petrol to hydrogen in Australia is about $30-$50 million... which is something no servo can afford...
('white' hydrogen is a myth- its made from oil, and is more commonly called black hydrogen, against green hydrogen - made from water via electrolysis)

The US is a basketcase.... thankfully they are NOT the entire world, who will happily leave them behind... in another decade at most, it will like Russia, left with a crumbling infrastructure, no viable economy and falling ever further behind...

I hate this. But I'm afraid there is truth in your post. The problem is this country is so entrenched with special interests and morons who won't open their eyes. I have been livid with both political parties. The GOP because they are owned by fossil fuels interests and lack the courage to bite that hand. And the Democrats for not knowing how to sell the alternative. The focus on climate change is stupid. Not that it isn't a major problem. It's just a problem that is unrelatable to the average American trying to make ends meet. A future without fossil fuels or just a substantially smaller shouldn't be sold to them on the environment. But on their own energy and vehicle expenditures. Tell someone they can spend a few thousand dollars a year less on transportation, they will sign up. Tarriffs is just another way to say they have to buy buggy whips.



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[Rolfe]

Hydrogen has already failed. Toyota can't give away the Mirai, hydrogen stations are closing, and there are several ongoing class actions against them for mis-selling. I think battery technology is becoming practical for heavier-use applications faster than hydrogen is able to make itself viable for these too. Acbytesla is right, it's all a scam to keep selling fossil fuels. As is the anti-EV FUD. My neighbour across the road, identical house, shook his head sceptically when I said, don't get a hybrid, and bought one. He'd obviously been got at by the "range anxiety" doom mongers. That's one more combusiton engine in circulation to keep burning stuff and needing its complicated mechanism services.

Me, I spent just over £40,000 TOTAL on a new EV (they're available much more cheaply now, but this was April 2023) AND a solar panels/home battery/EV charger setup. It looks as if over the year as a whole I'll be in a fair bit of credit for my electricity. That is, The return on the solar export will pay not just for all my home electricity but all my day-to-day car fuel as well, with some left over. That's in Scotland, not exactly know nfor its cloudless skies. I have a card that will let me charge any public EV charging to my home electricity account as well, I should probably start using it to mop up some of the surplus.

And someone in an identical house went out and bought a plug-in hybrid. Sob.

 

[acbytesla]

Hydrogen as a gas element is definitely a non-starter. It is far too expensive to manufacture, store and transport. It lacks the energy density. You have to compress it far too much which is far too expensive. I'm referring to geological hydrogen. Also known as white hydrogen They are looking at ways to combine it with other molecules including lignin. This way hydrogen the fuel has the energy density of typical fossil fuels and it solves the storage and transportation issues. Still they are at best where lithium batteries and EVs were in 1990.

I have been obsessed with the development of alternative energy since high school when we debated the resolution "that the development and allocation of alternative resources should be controlled by an International organization. " We did that for an entire year. I learned a lot about nuclear fusion, fission and breeder reactors, solar, wind and ocean thermal gradients.

It's amazing how far and how little we have progressed since then. Nuclear seemed to have taken many steps back until the last few years. And despite a recent fury of investment into fusion, it still appears to be 50 years away. But we're now seeing a lot more progress in fission technology. I'm convinced that it will make a comeback long before fusion ever contributes much power to the grid.

Right now I see EVs crushing vehicle sales anywhere the grid can support it.

 

[Dabop]

Hydrogen as a gas element is definitely a non-starter. It is far too expensive to manufacture, store and transport. It lacks the energy density. You have to compress it far too much which is far too expensive. I'm referring to geological hydrogen. Also known as white hydrogen They are looking at ways to combine it with other molecules including lignin. This way hydrogen the fuel has the energy density of typical fossil fuels and it solves the storage and transportation issues. Still they are at best where lithium batteries and EVs were in 1990.

I have been obsessed with the development of alternative energy since high school when we debated the resolution "that the development and allocation of alternative resources should be controlled by an International organization. " We did that for an entire year. I learned a lot about nuclear fusion, fission and breeder reactors, solar, wind and ocean thermal gradients.

It's amazing how far and how little we have progressed since then. Nuclear seemed to have taken many steps back until the last few years. And despite a recent fury of investment into fusion, it still appears to be 50 years away. But we're now seeing a lot more progress in fission technology. I'm convinced that it will make a comeback long before fusion ever contributes much power to the grid.

Right now I see EVs crushing vehicle sales anywhere the grid can support it.

Just in my little town in (very) rural Australia of 1500 people there are now 6 EV's with more on the way (including mine hopefully soon this year)

I'm completely offgrid, as was the owner of the one I 'test drove' (a 200km 'test drive' lol- I was expecting a quick spin around the block-not a two hour drive to pick up a $7 hinge...)

Not one person here has any 'range anxiety'- and we live in a very small town where it is literally an hours drive to the next one!!!

EV's are already 'suitable for purpose' for 99% of the population- I often see claims like 'I won't buy one until it has a range of 1000 miles' from US posters online ... Really??? WHAT ice car has that kind of range (1600km) from the factory??? (even those in rural outback Australia rarely have anything NEAR that kind of fuel capacity- and thats only in modified 4wds fitted with aftermarket dual long range fuel tanks- yet these people want that for vehicles that will spend most of their lives driving down to the supermarket in suburbia....

Sure there ARE some people that an EV wouldn't be suitable, but they are far from being the majority...

 

[acbytesla]

Just in my little town in (very) rural Australia of 1500 people there are now 6 EV's with more on the way (including mine hopefully soon this year)

I'm completely offgrid, as was the owner of the one I 'test drove' (a 200km 'test drive' lol- I was expecting a quick spin around the block-not a two hour drive to pick up a $7 hinge...)

Not one person here has any 'range anxiety'- and we live in a very small town where it is literally an hours drive to the next one!!!

EV's are already 'suitable for purpose' for 99% of the population- I often see claims like 'I won't buy one until it has a range of 1000 miles' from US posters online ... Really??? WHAT ice car has that kind of range (1600km) from the factory??? (even those in rural outback Australia rarely have anything NEAR that kind of fuel capacity- and thats only in modified 4wds fitted with aftermarket dual long range fuel tanks- yet these people want that for vehicles that will spend most of their lives driving down to the supermarket in suburbia....

Sure there ARE some people that an EV wouldn't be suitable, but they are far from being the majority...

I live in the US. Timber country. I don't hear many people that think they need a range of a thousand miles. I don't think almost anyone needs more than a 300 mile range.

But there are so many variables so what is right for one person doesn't make it right for another.

I live off grid too. Solar powers my home. This time of year here solar doesn't supply enough electricity to power the home. Let alone an EV. Just not enough solar hours. So I have to supplement it by running a generator a couple of days each week. By March I won't need the generator at all.
I have 5KW of solar panels right now. I plan on buying at least 10KW to 15KW more of solar before I buy an EV. I just bought a commercial grade 440 volt 64KW string inverter (I got it super cheap and it is brand new in box) I'm trying to get my neighbor to share the costs of the project since that will make this cheaper. .

 

[Dabop]

I often hear/see it in the anti EV brigade 'they need at least a thousand mile range before they are practical' which is absurd, no-one expects that from an ICE, so why demand it is a 'needed requirement' for an EV???

I'm lucky- most of the year even my little 'temporary' array (3 years of temporary lol) of 1.5kw provides more than sufficient to run the shed and caravan, I got a total of 18kw here (mostly sitting in the shed) waiting for the house to be finished lol

The only time I want more in in summer- if the temps weren't so hot, my array would 'just' keep up with the aircon in the caravans demand, but the drop in output when the air temps are over 40C and the panels are running at over 80C means I lose about 20% of my arrays capacity in summer over the cooler weather in spring and autumn...

As it is, my 18kw arrays when on the house would hit about 90kWh a day in spring/autumn here, about 70kwh a day in summer and winter... (even the little 2x 750w arrays, one north facing, one west facing, generate about 7-8kwh a day)- never needed a genny in over 4 years- lucky as mine hasn't been started since about 2008 lol

Under $2k Au for the 72 250 exgridtie panels and racking, coupled with a 12kw LF 48v inverter and 20kWh of LYP lithium cells (16x400Ah) for under $18k Au for the lot...

 

[acbytesla]

I often hear/see it in the anti EV brigade 'they need at least a thousand mile range before they are practical' which is absurd, no-one expects that from an ICE, so why demand it is a 'needed requirement' for an EV???

I'm lucky- most of the year even my little 'temporary' array (3 years of temporary lol) of 1.5kw provides more than sufficient to run the shed and caravan, I got a total of 18kw here (mostly sitting in the shed) waiting for the house to be finished lol

The only time I want more in in summer- if the temps weren't so hot, my array would 'just' keep up with the aircon in the caravans demand, but the drop in output when the air temps are over 40C and the panels are running at over 80C means I lose about 20% of my arrays capacity in summer over the cooler weather in spring and autumn...

As it is, my 18kw arrays when on the house would hit about 90kWh a day in spring/autumn here, about 70kwh a day in summer and winter... (even the little 2x 750w arrays, one north facing, one west facing, generate about 7-8kwh a day)- never needed a genny in over 4 years- lucky as mine hasn't been started since about 2008 lol

Under $2k Au for the 72 250 exgridtie panels and racking, coupled with a 12kw LF 48v inverter and 20kWh of LYP lithium cells (16x400Ah) for under $18k Au for the lot...

18KW is a lot. That is three almost 4 times what I have. That's a killer price I assume they are 12 volt batteries run in series for 4ea 48 volt banks.

 

[acbytesla]

18KW is a lot. That is three almost 4 times what I have. That's a killer price I assume they are 12 volt batteries run in series for 4ea 48 volt banks.

I live in Western Washington. We have a lot of overcast days in the winter. I have days where I'm lucky if the array produces 3KW. Last 2 weeks it was clear cold and sunny. I didn't have to run the Gen at all. Great for this time of year, But today I don't even think I saw the sun. I expect I'll have to fire it up on Sunday.

 

[Dabop]

18KW is a lot. That is three almost 4 times what I have. That's a killer price I assume they are 12 volt batteries run in series for 4ea 48 volt banks.

Not particularly cheap, I bought them off facebook marketplace, they often come up when a installer needs to empty out their backyard lol ($25-$35 for a 250w panel isn't an uncommon price here for ex gridtie panels)
Took 2 grand out of the bank, put $40 of diesel in the tilt tray and the rest went on the panels, all 72 of them lol

I use Lithiums (LYP/LiFeYPO4 cells) rather than the more common LFP/LiFePO4 cells for the battery bank- they have a MUCH wider operating temperature range than LFP or L/A (-45C up to 80C or -49F to 175F)
These are the specs for my battery bank (16x 3.4v nominal cells)

They do cost more than LFP, but considering that we regularly get temps in excess of 40C for most of the summer, where a LFP or L/A will have to go into current limiting to avoid damage, the LYP can still be rated at their maximum discharge/charge limits instead...

 

[acbytesla]

That's cheap here. And heat is hardly a problem. Above 90F or 32C is rare. Cold is what concerns me with the batteries. But when I do my upgrade on my solar I plan on building an extremely well insulated shed that will thermostatically prevent it from getting less than than 35F or 1C. I see I can buy LIFPO4 batteries for a third the price I paid when I bought batteries a few years ago.

 

[Dabop]

LFP (LiFePO4) are ok from -20C to 60C- but only at reduced charge/discharge currents (thats -4F to 140F)- ok if your temps are basically between 0C to 40C but reduce the current limits past those points...

Thats why I went the LYP/LiFeYPO4 route- a bit more expensive, and slightly bigger for the same storage capacity than LFP are, but with full current ratings from -25C to 60C and only reduced current limits above/below those limits to -45C/80C, made a lot more sense than LFP did in my climate (basically about 1/4 of the year or more, my battery bank would be in current limit mode most days...)

By the time my LYPs need current limiting due to heat- well, the battery bank has become the least of my issues- 60C is 140F... If its that hot, my battery bank is literally in hell.... and I'd be looking at moving... say Antarctica lol

 

[Rolfe]

Wow, that's amazing. My array could probably do 7-8 kw, but it's capped at 5 kw because of the grid requirements. There's light cloud at the moment and it's 9.45 am, and it's doing 3.76 kw, exporting 2.64 kw to the grid, having almost recharged the home battery. (It had fallen to 90% running the house after the cheap-rate power finished at 5.30 am, and I see some sort of minor glitch caused the car to swipe something out of the battery at the time of the switch.)

 

[acbytesla]

LFP (LiFePO4) are ok from -20C to 60C- but only at reduced charge/discharge currents (thats -4F to 140F)- ok if your temps are basically between 0C to 40C but reduce the current limits past those points...

Thats why I went the LYP/LiFeYPO4 route- a bit more expensive, and slightly bigger for the same storage capacity than LFP are, but with full current ratings from -25C to 60C and only reduced current limits above/below those limits to -45C/80C, made a lot more sense than LFP did in my climate (basically about 1/4 of the year or more, my battery bank would be in current limit mode most days...)

By the time my LYPs need current limiting due to heat- well, the battery bank has become the least of my issues- 60C is 140F... If its that hot, my battery bank is literally in hell.... and I'd be looking at moving... say Antarctica lol

That seems overkill for here. I have never even read about that chemistry. Extreme heat or extreme cold is hardly an issue in the Pacific Northwest. I have to build a shed to house the batteries and other equipment. Might as well protect my investment .

 

[Dabop]

That seems overkill for here. I have never even read about that chemistry. Extreme heat or extreme cold is hardly an issue in the Pacific Northwest. I have to build a shed to house the batteries and other equipment. Might as well protect my investment .

Extreme cold isn't exactly an issue here for some reason, but heat on the other hand....
(running LFP at 40C and above will have significant detriment on the service life of the battery bank...)
As I am totally offgrid, there are literally no limits to what I can fit- if I could fit 5MW on my place and could pay for it, thats no problems...

Even gridties here have limits, but hybrids have no limits on production, only export... so you can make as much as you want for local usage on your property, just limited to 5kW for a single phase supply, or 30kW for a 3 phase supply on export...

It isn't uncommon to see 10kW plus arrays, with a relatively tiny 5kW gridtie inverter (the rest being used or stored onsite)
LYP 'quick cheat sheet' lol
https://www.batteries-forum.com/d/13-lifeypo4-a-promising-chemistry
Although they have been around a lot longer than 2019!!!!

 

[acbytesla]

I am planning on increasing my solar array to 15KW. All ground mount. Have to cut a few big trees down to eliminate any shade issues. I will add more batteries, but not sure I need that many because the EV can serve as an auxiliary battery bank.

 

[Dabop]

I am planning on increasing my solar array to 15KW. All ground mount. Have to cut a few big trees down to eliminate any shade issues. I will add more batteries, but not sure I need that many because the EV can serve as an auxiliary battery bank.

Not a fan of ground mounts (although thats what my 'temporary arrays are) as they get dirty quickly, where roof mounts tend to stay a lot cleaner longer...
(most of the dust travels within a metre of the ground, so obvious why ground mounts are best avoided)

With a major increase in array size, best to recheck your maximum acceptable charge current for the battery bank, it's easy to jump past that limit without realising it and causing battery degradation as a result... (you can still have the extra panel capacity available for bad weather conditions without having the battery bank overcharge in good conditions, but it requires more careful selection of your charge controllers, using ones that can accept 'overpanelling' without issue...) or having multiple arrays in different directions- mine currently are north and west, the final install on the house will be 6kw east, 6kw north and 6kw west, this allows a large array to have a lower peak charge current, spread over a longer charge period instead and also allows a higher daily total generation on overcast days compared to a north only facing array (south facing for those north of the equator obviously lol)

15kw on a 48v nominal system can result in charge currents up to around 300A into the battery bank, some battery types aren't happy at that level depending on the cell capacity and any BMS in use- my LYP's are at the upper end (up to 3C continuous charging rate which for my 400Ah cells (48v/20kWh nominal battery bank) equates to 1200A max charge current, but a 1C rated LFP (which is common in many LFP's) of the same 400Ah cell capacity would only be allowed a max charge current of 400A instead, and 'ye old timie' Lead/Acids, many were only rated at 0.3 to 1C, a 0.3C rated L/A cell (such as many paste/agm style L/A cells) rated at the same 400Ah could only accept a tiny in comparison 120A maximum charge current for those down the bottom end of the C rate at 0.3...

 

[acbytesla]

Dust really isn't much of an issue around here except in the spring when pollen gets over everything. I like the ground mounts because I don't have to climb on the roof to clean the panels or if there is a problem. (As you get older, you realize it is better not to be getting on roofs.) I also like to check my panels and wiring often. I above all want to keep from starting a forest fire.

Thanks for the advice. I'm always learning. I know that good battery management is always a huge issue. The batteries, inverters, chargers BMS etc cost far more than the panels. I want the most bang for the buck. But you also don't want to be so cheap it causes other problems. I don't think you can ever have too much battery capacity. Still, too much battery is money I could spend elsewhere.

I've looked into building do it yourself tracking on the panels. Part for the obvious extra energy. Part, just to do it. But I'll never get my time and money out of it. Much cheaper and simpler to just add extra panels and tilt them in a different direction. One of my neighbors built a fence out of bifacial panels with an East West orientation which I thought was cool.

 

[Dabop]

Thats becoming quite common using bifacials on e/w or single sided on north/south facing....
(there's a guy on youtube who has actually done testing over long periods with the various types, directions (including E/W verticals versus bifacial 'traditional mount' versus single sided) etc and logged the resulting data, plus diy bats,bms etc)
https://www.youtube.com/@ProjectsWithDave/videos

Keeping panels clean, many make much more out of this than is really required- most places will receive sufficient rainfall in a year to keep them 'clean enough' for practical purposes... so imho, most 'panel cleanings' really aren't required...
Even so, a quick 'hose off' with a high pressure garden nozzle (NOT a high pressure cleaner!!!) is all that is required, and even on a 2 story house, I did that from ground level with a normal 'garden sprayer nozzle' literally cabletied to a piece of electrical conduit lol

Trackers are well past their use by date- they made sense when a 100W panel cost a grand each (indeed thats what I paid for my first panels, back in the 1980's!!!) but with current panel prices- hell no...
Even the big solar farms around here have given up on trackers and are just using fixed arrays- the maintenance costs amount to more than the extra power they make earns them....

Battery costs are still by far the biggest $$$ item, and there are few places that solar is reduced down to levels that can't be compensated for by going the much cheaper 'overpanelling' route... (my own system here loses 50% with 100% grey cloud cover and showers, dropping to 30% of normal output in 'black' 100% cloud coverage and pouring rain- when the full 18kw array is up, even in the middle of a cyclone, it would drop from about 90kWh a day down to around 25-30kWh a day generated- my 'base usage' (ie not using the toys in the workshop etc) at the old house was only 7kW a day... ( even with the little 'temporary array' I drop from about 7-8kWh a day down in good conditions to 2.5kWh a day- which still runs the caravan ok (just... true...) but with a 20kwh battery bank (sized to suit the house and workshop when finished) I can literally run for over a week with ZERO solar input... as in panels disconnected...

The last time we had a major rain event (as in driving around with the headlghts on, black clouds all day that lasted for weeks (I got flooded in to the extent even the truck couldn't wade the flooddips- too deep at over 1.2m of water over the road) and that lasted over a week like that (they don't call it the wet season for nothing lol) I still made more than I was using even under those conditions for the van (and I had lights on all day and tv and computer going all day- sure wasn't going out in it to climb ladders and build the shed lol)

Thats why no generator is needed or planned for here lol

 

[Rolfe]

We seem to be quite a long way from electric cars now...

 

[acbytesla]

This is about using solar to charge EVs. The most important and most expensive component of off grid solar or EVs is the batteries and battery management equipment. If I can substitute 50 KW of my home battery bank with the EV battery bank.