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Cont: Electric Vehicles II

"Interesting" ... citation please ?

Lee "The MacMaster" Davey is stirring up this trouble on his YouTube channel, and there are shills all over Twitter telling anyone who will listen that insurance companies will not cover a house that has a home charger installed. Here's an example.


And here's Lee's latest episode of Fantasy Island.


This one is also rather fun.

 
There are a lot of vids on EV fires randomly starting in the cities in China, taking a swipe at China and the cars equally.

No background information at all like battery damages or whatever else, just look how bad they are. They aren't burning up randomly in Mexico. Hmm...

A lady that does YT vids on small engine repair will only insult battery anything (brand not mattering) and mention the inevitable fires to come. For her it's gasoline or nothing.
I find gas tools a requirement for remote jobs, but more fiddly than battery by far.

Mine haven't burned up in over a year. And barely heat up when charging. I certainly can't see truth in the scare, wish I could afford more and bigger ones.

On the sidetrack, we went near all LED lighting long ago and it's unusual to need to change a bulb anymore. Bill dropped a lot too.
 
I don't know what's going on in China, but I suspect there are some low-budget cars there with poor BMS. There's probably an explanatory/debunking video about it. Loads of studies showing that ICE cars are 20 to 60 times more likely to catch fire than EVs.

Did you know that most EVs have a "vehicle to load" facility that allows you to drive the car anywhere you like, then plug your electric power tools into the car and run them from the car just as easily as if you were running them from a socket in your house?
 
The danger of fire with EVs is grossly over-rated. Any gasoline powered vehicle is far more susceptible to catching fire. Diesel OTOH, is extremely difficult to catch fire. The problem with EVs is once a Lithium NMC battery catches fire they are extremely difficult to put out. Still, the odds of them catching fire is quite remote.
 
They're not that difficult to put out if the right techniques are used. Fortunately firefighters are learning what works. Most recent discussions say they're no worse than ICE fires, although since ICE fires are horrific themselves, that's not especially reassuring.
 
The danger of fire with EVs is grossly over-rated. Any gasoline powered vehicle is far more susceptible to catching fire.
Diesel OTOH, is extremely difficult to catch fire. The problem with EVs is once a Lithium NMC battery catches fire they are extremely difficult to put out. Still, the odds of them catching fire is quite remote.

A common misconception.

"The flash point of diesel fuel is between 52°C and 96°C (126°F and 205°F). "
 
They're not that difficult to put out if the right techniques are used. Fortunately firefighters are learning what works. Most recent discussions say they're no worse than ICE fires, although since ICE fires are horrific themselves, that's not especially reassuring.
I'd be interested to hear what these techniques are. I know there have been some interesting developments in Sweden (with a particular type of lance attachment), for example, but those have not been adopted in this country yet.
According to my son, the main way to deal with an EV fire in the UK currently (in the unlikely event of one happening) is to let it burn itself out. Putting the vehicle in a skip full of water is another option, but that's rarely practicable, and it's not clear that it actually works.
 
My understanding is that that approach is quite out of date now. It's what you'll probably find if you google for it though. EV battery fires are actually pretty uncommon. Has your son actually dealt with one?
 
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A common misconception.

"The flash point of diesel fuel is between 52°C and 96°C (126°F and 205°F). "

I think the misconception is that the fire starts in the fuel tank. Of course it doesn't. It starts somewhere else in the car, a fault in the 12v electrical system or someone dropped a cigarette end or something, and then the material of the car starts to burn. Lubricating oils, soundproofing, insulation, whatever. Soon there is a good-going inferno, which heats up the fuel tank. These are usually plastic these days, and melt. Extremely hot diesel then escapes and forms what was termed a "running fire" in the Luton report. This diesel is hot enough to burn, and sets nearby cars alight if there are any, rinse and repeat.

EV fires often start in a similar way, though it seems that their makeup makes 12v faults and so on rather less likely to cause fires. They don't have all the lubrication an ICE car has, I suppose. If an EV catches fire this way, the battery often doesn't catch fire at all. The battery in the Cybertruck that was used in a recent sabotage in America was undamaged even though the car itself was filled with fireworks and other explosive materials. Many EVs have been discovered with their batteries intact after being involved in house fires. The car has simply burned around the battery, which is undamaged. In this scenario a burning EV is less dangerous than a burning ICE car, because the fuel isn't contributing to the fire, and the "running fires" don't happen.

The big scary bogeyman scenario is where the battery itself catches fire. This seems to be uncommon. It can happen as a result of the previous scenario, occasionally, or as the result of damage in an accident, or spontaneously. Nevertheless modern batteries are quite hard to damage sufficiently to cause them to go into thermal runaway, and LFP batteries don't do it at all as far as I understand it. Another one is salt water, but again this will only cause a battery fire if the battery is damaged or faulty to begin with. (Shock-horror videos about burning Teslas after the Florida hurricane mainly consisted of multiple clips of the same blue Tesla at different stages of destruction and from different angles.) The Australian body that collects worldwide data on EV fires reports a surprisingly small number of cases of spontaneous thermal runaway going right back to 2010, and most of them seem to have been cars subject to recall for a known fault - principally the Jaguar iPace.

Stuff happens. But if you don't report on ICE fires (they're so common, they're not news) and saturate the media with horror stories about the relatively few EVs that have actually experienced battery fires, a very misleading picture emerges.
 
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The danger of fire with EVs is grossly over-rated. Any gasoline powered vehicle is far more susceptible to catching fire. Diesel OTOH, is extremely difficult to catch fire. The problem with EVs is once a Lithium NMC battery catches fire they are extremely difficult to put out. Still, the odds of them catching fire is quite remote.
That never-ending thread on the car park fire cited some stats showing that ICE vehicles are about 10 times more likely to catch fire. Although it seems obvious that EVs are less prone to fires, I was surprised by the magnitude of the difference.
 
Did you know that most EVs have a "vehicle to load" facility that allows you to drive the car anywhere you like, then plug your electric power tools into the car and run them from the car just as easily as if you were running them from a socket in your house?
Better yet, it allowed me to run our refrigerator, TV, and a few other things when the power went out after Hurricane Milton passed by us. I didn't by our Ioniq 5 as a emergency power backup, but it is really nice to have that option.
 
I use corded yard tools on small area yards but don't want a car. I would prefer a road legal golf cart car ( my wife would hate it and me) for my business. Right now I am making bigger cash on a full time job unrelated to that to enable me to tool up faster.
A solar charged battery backup unit with ac converter would be ideal to get started. Small enough to hand cart to jobs, enough to recharge batteries during.

A real issue with not using gasoline tools is I am leaving double the money basically unattended somewhere as I work. Electric stuff does cost more to get it to a a level to complete bigger jobs. Spare batteries and all related.
 
Did you know that most EVs have a "vehicle to load" facility that allows you to drive the car anywhere you like, then plug your electric power tools into the car and run them from the car just as easily as if you were running them from a socket in your house?
Most current models, I would guess, rather than most EVs. My 2022 model Kia doesn't do it, but the next newer model did, IIRC.
 
I think the misconception is that the fire starts in the fuel tank. Of course it doesn't. It starts somewhere else in the car, a fault in the 12v electrical system or someone dropped a cigarette end or something, and then the material of the car starts to burn. Lubricating oils, soundproofing, insulation, whatever. Soon there is a good-going inferno, which heats up the fuel tank. These are usually plastic these days, and melt. Extremely hot diesel then escapes and forms what was termed a "running fire" in the Luton report. This diesel is hot enough to burn, and sets nearby cars alight if there are any, rinse and repeat.

EV fires often start in a similar way, though it seems that their makeup makes 12v faults and so on rather less likely to cause fires. They don't have all the lubrication an ICE car has, I suppose. If an EV catches fire this way, the battery often doesn't catch fire at all. The battery in the Cybertruck that was used in a recent sabotage in America was undamaged even though the car itself was filled with fireworks and other explosive materials. Many EVs have been discovered with their batteries intact after being involved in house fires. The car has simply burned around the battery, which is undamaged. In this scenario a burning EV is less dangerous than a burning ICE car, because the fuel isn't contributing to the fire, and the "running fires" don't happen.

The big scary bogeyman scenario is where the battery itself catches fire. This seems to be uncommon. It can happen as a result of the previous scenario, occasionally, or as the result of damage in an accident, or spontaneously. Nevertheless modern batteries are quite hard to damage sufficiently to cause them to go into thermal runaway, and LFP batteries don't do it at all as far as I understand it. Another one is salt water, but again this will only cause a battery fire if the battery is damaged or faulty to begin with. (Shock-horror videos about burning Teslas after the Florida hurricane mainly consisted of multiple clips of the same blue Tesla at different stages of destruction and from different angles.) The Australian body that collects worldwide data on EV fires reports a surprisingly small number of cases of spontaneous thermal runaway going right back to 2010, and most of them seem to have been cars subject to recall for a known fault - principally the Jaguar iPace.

Stuff happens. But if you don't report on ICE fires (they're so common, they're not news) and saturate the media with horror stories about the relatively few EVs that have actually experienced battery fires, a very misleading picture emerges.
I've dealt with dozens of engine fires. Never with a diesel. If you put a match to diesel fuel, it's not going to light. Whereas gasoline fumes and a match will start a fire. But, yes most fires in an engine bay are started with an electrical short.
 
Actually there are plenty videos on YouTube where people put a match to diesel and lo and behold, it lights. But that's not relevant anyway, because the fire doesn't start with spontaneous ignition of the liquid fuel, petrol or diesel, but elsewhere in the car, and by the time that fire has caused the plastic fuel tank to melt, its contents are way hot enough to ignite.
 
Actually there are plenty videos on YouTube where people put a match to diesel and lo and behold, it lights. But that's not relevant anyway, because the fire doesn't start with spontaneous ignition of the liquid fuel, petrol or diesel, but elsewhere in the car, and by the time that fire has caused the plastic fuel tank to melt, its contents are way hot enough to ignite.
I have tried and unless you stand there and hold the flame to diesel fuel it won't light. But diesel fuel definitely burns.

 
Well, yes, you do have to hold the match to the fuel. But it's irrelevant. That's not how diesel car fires start.
 
I've dealt with dozens of engine fires. Never with a diesel. If you put a match to diesel fuel, it's not going to light. Whereas gasoline fumes and a match will start a fire. But, yes most fires in an engine bay are started with an electrical short.
On the farm we used a diesel-fueled cooker to make dog food. Guess I must have imagined starting it with a match. It's harder to get started than petrol and doesn't have the same tendency to explode, but burns well enough.

Engine oil is also known to cause fires if it leaks. Ford had continuous problems with its hybrid engines seizing and cracking the case, releasing oil into the engine bay. In 2023 they recalled 125,000 vehicles, and applied a 'fix' that consisted of drilling holes through the shield below the engine so liquids could run out onto the road. This didn't fix the problem, which was made worse in their hybrids because the vehicle would switch to electric and keep going for miles after the engine seized.
 
Stuff happens. But if you don't report on ICE fires (they're so common, they're not news) and saturate the media with horror stories about the relatively few EVs that have actually experienced battery fires, a very misleading picture emerges.
ICE fires do get reported if they are 'newsworthy', but aren't accompanied by headlines like 'this is why EV's are so dangerous'. If it's a Tesla the headline will always include this information too, because the News Media won't miss any opportunity to stick the boot into Elon Musk This goes at least as far back as 2016.
 
I did a search one day to see if I could find information about a car fire that had been tweeted out as a traffic warning a few days previously. I just put in the number of the road and the words "vehicle fire". I was deluged with reports of fires on that road, all ICE, going back a few years. Most of the reports were in local newspapers and had headlines like "bus route diverted on Tuesday" or "local mum's lucky escape". None of them had been picked up by national newspapers.

I then tried to be a bit more specific to find out what the score was, and found out not just about the Vauxhall Zafira, which had a recall that was widely publicised, but things like the Mercedes A-class, which included the account of one woman whose car had caught fire and she was given another identical car while they looked at her original one, and it caught fire too! There was a BMW model that was used as a police car which had so many incidents, including the death of a policeman in a car that caught fire while he was driving it, that the police stopped using it. Also this.


The main EV recall I know about is the Jaguar iPace - I suppose JLR didn't want their EV to feel left out of the tradition of the manufacturer. There has also been a recent advisory for the Porsche Taycan, although I've not heard about any Taycans which have actually caught fire. EV fires do happen. Just an awful lot less often than ICE fires. But we've got to the point where any news of a car fire is greeted with a horde of people insisting it must be an EV and if anyone says it isn't they're involved in a cover-up (q.v. the thread on the Luton Airport fire). Last week there was a bus fire in (I think) Southport, and half of Twitter was screaming that it must be an electric bus, even after the local MP intervened and said all the buses in Southport were diesel (and he should know, because he'd been trying to get them to introduce electric buses with no success).
 

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