There are no Amish children?
"Evolution is only a theory" stickers...
Genesius
Apathetic Agnostic
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- Apr 23, 2004
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My fault for not expressing myself clearly - I was not sufficently clear when I said "You're not born Amish". 
While Amish people do have children, and they take their children to church, the children are not members of the church. That takes place as an adult. So the children are part of the Amish community, but not the Amish church.
<sigh> That still reads as clear as mud. Some days it's just not worth firing up the ol' computer.
For more info that you could ever want on the subject, see http://www.amishnews.com/amishseries.htm. The articles on this site are fact-checked with local Amish, so they should qualify as an authoritative source.
While Amish people do have children, and they take their children to church, the children are not members of the church. That takes place as an adult. So the children are part of the Amish community, but not the Amish church.<sigh> That still reads as clear as mud. Some days it's just not worth firing up the ol' computer.
For more info that you could ever want on the subject, see http://www.amishnews.com/amishseries.htm. The articles on this site are fact-checked with local Amish, so they should qualify as an authoritative source.
They are anabaptists; they are baptised into the church not as infants, but only after making the conscious decision to enter. Quakers, Mennonites, Old Order Brethren (and perhaps more) share this characteristic. My church, back when I was christian, was this way. So, there are children in the community, but they are not truly members of the church until they decide to be baptised into it.
Do they have to follow the religious rules?
Genesius
Apathetic Agnostic
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They have to follow their parents' rules. I would think allowances are made since children are not generally as responsible as adults.
Genesius
Apathetic Agnostic
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2004
- Messages
- 1,583
Don't "think". (Well, in this case....)
Sorry, I don't have an Amish right at hand to ask. I could convert and get a message back to you if you're willing to wait.
Geez, these Danes. . . I thought Missouri folks had the patent on the "Show me" attitude, but they're just amateurs.
Interesting. I think that's a far more "moral" type of religion than many mainstream sects, as it does not assume that the child will join the community until they are old enough to make this decision themselves. (I am somewhat cynical that it actually works out as purely as that, but the theory is nice).
While a staunch atheist myself, my attitude has always been that should a child of mine express a desire to go to church, it will be denied until they reach the age of about 13 to 16 (based on my assessment of their maturity). Should they still want to do so then, I will drive them to and from their selected place of worship myself.
In my case, the pastor of our church (and the adults in general) encouraged us to question, to be skeptical; they had the courage of their convictions, and believed confidently that critical analysis would lead anyone to agree with the church teachings. For quite a while (in my own life), it did.
I agree with your cynical side, even though in my own experience I must say that it worked out pretty much as it was supposed to.
They don't have to; they get to.
666, I'll give you two documentaries on the Amish experience and two non-fiction texts (in fact, one is in a magazine in the lounge) if you're genuinely interested in them. We teach one of the documentaries for Year 12 English. 'Witness' is not very accurate, as you may have figured out.
My fault for not expressing myself clearly - I was not sufficently clear when I said "You're not born Amish".
<sigh> That still reads as clear as mud. Some days it's just not worth firing up the ol' computer.
For more info that you could ever want on the subject, see http://www.amishnews.com/amishseries.htm. The articles on this site are fact-checked with local Amish, so they should qualify as an authoritative source.
Thanks for the link, I can use this.
And you couldn't have just told me that tonight?
TOLD you that you were a stalker.
Who are you again? Some newbie. Not worth my regard. *clicks ignore, wanders off to the politics forum*
Sorry, I don't have an Amish right at hand to ask. I could convert and get a message back to you if you're willing to wait.
Geez, these Danes. . . I thought Missouri folks had the patent on the "Show me" attitude, but they're just amateurs.
You ain't seen nothin' yet....
Can they get out of it?
About the same as they can "get out of" any of the other daily or weekly routines of life. In practice, in my experience, what you are asking is whether they can "get out of" a chance to interact with their friends, in a positive environment, where they are respected and cherished by adults who have their welfare in interest. There were times when I wanted to sleep in, and some times when I did so successfully, but most times I looked forward to Sunday. Your question is, in the context of a well-functioning church community, the equivalent of asking whether they can "get out of" a trip to the ice cream store. The answer will always depend on the family dynamic (are you meeting grandma at the store? Then you cannot get out of it...), and does not really rely on official rules. You are imposing your view on theirs in simply asking the question. Could you "get out of" the TAM chocolate challenge? Sure, but why would you?
Yes and no, Merc. (You don't mind if I call you Merc?)
I suppose that somewhere, someone has a cult devoted to the attainment of icecream, but generally speaking denying your children their every whim is called discipline, whilst forcing a religious mindset upon them could be called indoctrination. (Obviously only in the extreme case; you seem to be describing a Sunday School experience that was not, on the whole, largely different from just a babysitting trip).
I suppose that somewhere, someone has a cult devoted to the attainment of icecream, but generally speaking denying your children their every whim is called discipline, whilst forcing a religious mindset upon them could be called indoctrination. (Obviously only in the extreme case; you seem to be describing a Sunday School experience that was not, on the whole, largely different from just a babysitting trip).
("Merc" is just fine.)
I do not mean to speak for anyone but myself. I agree with you, especially when we look from the outside. The trick is, virtually everyone I know has convinced themselves that the way they themselves were raised "feels normal*", and the way another group might be raised is brainwashing.
*as an extreme example...one student of mine who was abused as a child, and who later married an abusive man, and who after many years of therapy had come to realize that her upbringing was not normal at all, uses the following analogy: When you are young, you learn the steps of the dance that is "how a family behaves". You may not like that dance, but you know it. When you grow up, you hear different music, and you are afraid to try a dance you do not know--when you hear the familiar music, even if it is not a dance you like, it is a dance you know, so you join in. For her, an abusive relationship "felt right" because it was what she had grown up in. It was very wrong, but from the inside of it she felt like she had grown up normally.
The sunday school experience was just one facet of a community's life, but it could be extended to more. (I would argue that it was, in fact, indoctrination, but that so is any child's upbringing. We were, recall, encouraged to be skeptical and to ask tough questions; there was no attempt to block other views from us, because it was believed that the proper views that would be shown to be proper...were the ones we held. This is very different from a typical cult...but I would argue that it is different only in degree of heavy-handedness.)
I just think it is very easy to point to a group, from the outside, and say that what they are doing is indoctrination or brainwashing, but very difficult to then point that same finger at ourselves and recognise that we (in any society) do the same.
Bah. False dicotomy. I'm not falling into the trap left by you string theologians.