But you chose to put those things there. You are free to do what you want in your own home. Just don't force me to look at it, when I stay at your generic hotel.
"Evolution is only a theory" stickers...
But you chose to put those things there. You are free to do what you want in your own home. Just don't force me to look at it, when I stay at your generic hotel.
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2001
- Messages
- 19,141
Yes, obviously. But what about aknotism?Dr. A. said:
~~ Paul
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
It's not about tricks. I'm not playing the Who's Going To Win Game that you like to play.
Because only a fool refuses to accept the inexorable. Especially when it doesn't hurt him and isn't a big deal.
Neither do I, actually. They want you to pay extra. And from what I've heard, the quality isn't that great.
That is your opinion. Not everyone agrees. I don't, as it happens. The Bible is a big influence on my civilization. History, art, and literature are riddled with references to it. The only influence bigger than the Christian mythology insofar as literature and art go is Greek mythology. Which I also read, without believing in.
And so? Do you have to give weight to religious messages endorsed by a hotel management? Who cares? I care about what a hotel might tell me about billing rates, and the pool usage, and how to get more towels. Its opinions on metaphysics, the origin of the universe, ethics, and how many angels can dance on a pin are irrelevant.
Maybe they didn't think they had to. Gideon Bibles are pretty universal in hotel rooms. I'd be more surprised to not find one.
Oh, my. Well, that proves you can't be racist, eh? You created an allowance for a Chinese restaurant to display a Buddha because it's Chinese, then graciously extended that to allow it to display the Virgin Mary, "because when I walked through the door, I had an expectation that I would be submitted to some form of belief." Why was that? Are Chinese restaurants inherently religious in some form, in your expectations? Why would a private business like a restaurant be allowed to display religion, in your ruling, while a hotel should not? Hmmm? Why would you object to one and not the other? I could only assume your "expectation of some form of belief" comes from one business being "generic" and the other "Chinese". Or will you now say that you would "expect some form of belief" displayed in any other kind of restaurant? An Intenational House of Pancakes with a Buddha? A Denny's with a Hanuman statue? A McDonald's with Chango candles?
"Some of my best friends are X!" isn't evidence of anything.
Did I say that? I'm pretty sure I didn't.
It just seems that your hatred of religion is blinding you to common sense.
Firstly, a Bible in a hotel room is not "subjecting" you to anything. You don't have to read it, or believe it.
Secondly, the minority has no more right to force its lack of belief on the majority than the majority has to force its belief on the minority. If most hotels, which are private businesses, feel like having Gideon Bibles in the room, why shouldn't they? It's their hotels, not yours.
This is quite laughable. Hotel room <> public schools. A Bible in a drawer <> conspiracy to teach Intelligent Design. The Gideons <> all that is evil and wicked done in the name of religion.
Because
a) it's private property and therefore the right of the hotel to furnish as they wish. If they want to paint scenes from the Book of Revelations on the ceiling, or have Tibetan Buddhist mandalas in the bathroom, that's their right.
b) Because it's not a big deal. It's a book in a drawer. You seem to feel that putting a book in a hotel drawer means the Mighty Hotel has extended it's Endorsement Of This Religion. Holy crap! Days Inn endorses the Bible! Let's convert!! WTF? Who cares what the hotel thinks? Who cares what it endorses? Did you convert to pseudo-Kabbalah because Madonna endorses it? Why should you care, even enough to object, to what a hotel does? And
c) it's not an endorsement. The hotels exist to make money. They don't give a flying fish what you believe, as long as you pay your bill and don't steal the towels. They let the Gideons do their thing because it doesn't hurt anybody, and it might be something many guests will ask for if its not there. I remember the days when every hotel room came with ashtrays. Did everyone smoke? Was the hotel encouraging, endorsing, forcing people to smoke? No. It provided, as part of its service, something that many guests might want and need. The rest could ignore them.
Religion is one aspect of culture. Expecting to escape it is silly. If you don't believe it, and you don't like it, fight the battles that matter: stop government endorsement, stop creeping religous agenda in law, stop censorship and the like. But bugging out over Gideon Bibles in hotels? Sheesh.
What I want is for individuals to make up their own minds about religion. Deciding for them what they should and shouldn't be exposed to, and in what venues, is not the right way to do that. That's the sort of tactic a religion would use.
Hell, haven't you realized that the best argument against Christianity is the Bible? Have you ever read the thing? If you really wanted people to turn skeptical, you'd encourage them to!
Are you being serious or silly? You want evidence regarding my comment about Shakespeare?
I don't know what kind of evidence you have in mind. Yet given that Shakespeare lived in a culture that was immersed in the Bible, that he must have read the Bible many times (probably in more than one English translation), that he alluded to it more than a thousand times in his works and obviously found it to be a rich literary source, and that the Bible - along with the Book of Common Prayer - was generally considered an essential fixture in respectable households in Shakespeare's day, I think my remark was reasonably well-founded.
Sure, it's a trick: Claim that I am waffling in my argumentation. I'm not.
Argument from popularity: We must accept it because it is so predominant. Sorry, but I won't.
The bible is first and foremost a religious document. It is one of the cornerstones in the biggest religion on Earth. It is the most printed book in the world.
Would you accept crucifixes? Pictures of Jesus?
Again, argument from popularity.
It means that your cheap shot backfired. You can act all huffy about it, though.
You are so busy finding faults in my argumentation that you don't read and understand it. They can run their business every which way they see fit. When you walk into a Chinese restaurant, you expect a specific product: You get the red walls, the Chinese paintings, the incense sticks, the small shrine, etc. When you walk into a generic hotel, you don't expect a religious lecture.
Having a Chinese family makes it a bit harder for you to claim I have anything against Chinese.
You said that they allow other people to put a book in a drawer. Do the hotels cater to Muslims? Yes? Why aren't there a Koran, too?
I don't hate religion, I just don't like it or the influence it has on my life. When I go to a generic hotel, I don't want to see a specific religion endorsed. It's that simple.
I have to consider if I want to read it or not. I don't want to be reminded of religion in a generic hotel. They are designed to be as accommodating to all people.
Again, you don't understand what I write. They can do what they want, they should just be upfront about it, so I know, as a consumer, what to expect.
Since the majority of that general public is some variety of Christian, and they decide, then your argumentation means they can teach Creationism in science classes.
Sure. But if they want to support a specific religion, they should tell me, so I can make an informed choice.
You care what the hotel thinks, the same way you care if some other business were selling you something. Would you like it, if they offered you the bible at the reception desk?
It is most definitely an endorsement. They have willingly and knowingly made the decision that their customers would, by default, be Christians. I find that offensive.
Boy, if I had a nickel for each time I had heard that one: "I disagree with you, so why don't you go elsewhere and stop arguing with me? You can do better in other areas....."
Then, we are back to square 1.
You want them to read the bible to turn them off religion. Do you think that is effective? Perhaps if they could also see why it is crap, e.g. by putting a small pamphlet beside the bible with some valid points?
Who's "forcing" you to consider anything?
You must feel very threatened at a library, where even more books are being forced upon you to consider!
Hawk one
Emperor of the Internet
Does your average public library contain the Coran, the Torah, and other religious and spiritual texts? Or does it only contain the bible?
It contains a lot of books, certainly all of those.
The key word is "forcing".
Again, who is "forcing" Claus to consider the Bible, to flip to the porn channel, to use the ironing board, to eat from the mini-bar, or to do anything else in his hotel room?
Not sure why he thinks having the most influential book in the world, that a large % of people like, merely being available in his hotel room is the same as "forcing". I'm sure he'll duc.. I mean explain.
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Hawk one
Emperor of the Internet
If a public library contains only religious text for one specific religion and no other, then said library can certainly be argued to force one specific viewpoints on the reader. Any library I go into, I'll expect to see religious text for -all- the major religions, and plenty of the minor, not one.
If you fail to see why this is logical, then that's your problem.
He already did. You just didn't read it. As for your last sentence, I see you still enjoy being hyopcritical.
And I generally don't get one. I do, however expect to find the Gideon Bible. It is as expected as any of the Chinese restaurant icons you list.
I find it a very helpful thing to have--the hotel's table usually has one leg that is a bit too short.
That's what I object to.
Ok, that is not being disputed.
What is being disputed is that if a hotel (people generally don't go there to read, which is why your library analogy is highly flawed) only had 1 religious text, is that "forcing" you to read it, or to even consider it?
Irrelevant. I am talking principles here.
You didn't say principles. You said
So what "beliefs" of yours do you have the right to shove in their face?
Troll.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
Wow. Just...wow.
Tricky
Briefly immortal
The "principle" is that if someone is allowed to shove their beliefs (any beliefs) in your face you are allowed to shove your beliefs (any beliefs) in theirs.
And while this may be true in principle, in real life it is not always the best idea. Sort of like "an eye for an eye until everyone is blind."
Originally Posted by CFLarsen :
You didn't say principles. You said
So what "beliefs" of yours do you have the right to shove in their face?
Seems like an easy question to answer by just listing your beliefs you have a right to shove in peoples' faces.
You didn't say principles. You said
So what "beliefs" of yours do you have the right to shove in their face?
Seems like an easy question to answer by just listing your beliefs you have a right to shove in peoples' faces.