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General UK politics VIII - The Last Tory

Gulliver Foyle said:
It's not so much that he got in on the political world, but that when there he did nothing for the working class.

But then again that is nu-Labor and nu-nu-Labor all over.
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Ah yes they introduced the minimum wage, reduced poverty, improved the NHS and raised living standards, but they failed your test of ideological purity so none of that counts.
 
Garrison said:
Ah yes they introduced the minimum wage, reduced poverty, improved the NHS and raised living standards, but they failed your test of ideological purity so none of that counts.
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They massively privatised public bodies, including the NHS (opening up the NHS to market forces in purchasing and allowing private companies to do NHS work for inflated fees), introduced the horror of PFI (solely to hide debt from the books, in a bid to pretend to look "fiscally responsible" in front of the right wing press), continued Thatcher's weakening of workers rights (and even the minimum wage was set way below the living wage at the time, not something nu-Labor types want to advertise, except when looking for handouts from rich people), weakened financial rules and protections (Gordon Brown, the man who "saved the financial system" after the crash, was the chief architect of the reason why it hit the UK so hard).

Tinkering at the edges is no replacement for smashing the whole system.
 
Why do you want to smash the whole system?

Do you want to live in the Middle Ages?
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
They massively privatised public bodies, including the NHS (opening up the NHS to market forces in purchasing and allowing private companies to do NHS work for inflated fees), introduced the horror of PFI (solely to hide debt from the books, in a bid to pretend to look "fiscally responsible" in front of the right wing press), continued Thatcher's weakening of workers rights (and even the minimum wage was set way below the living wage at the time, not something nu-Labor types want to advertise, except when looking for handouts from rich people), weakened financial rules and protections (Gordon Brown, the man who "saved the financial system" after the crash, was the chief architect of the reason why it hit the UK so hard).

Tinkering at the edges is no replacement for smashing the whole system.
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Labour MP's are exactly that: Members of Parliament. They are parliamentarians, who take an oath of loyalty to the Crown on being sworn in to the House of Commons. I don't know where people get the idea they are revolutionaries there to 'smash the system'. They are part of the system. There is also no logic in claiming they should not be allowed to drink champagne, live in Islington nor own two jaguars. IMV Tony Blair was actually a Tory but only joined Labour because of his wife, Cherie. Remember, Blair was one of the most successful Labour governments. There hasn't been a 'socialist' government since Attlee. At least it is nice to have a Prime Minister in Keir Starmer who has compassion, integrity and principles. However, he is pretty centrist and a former Blairite so don't expect revolution any time soon. For now, let's just enjoy having an adult in the room.

As for Prescott, yes, he was flawed but he was a great character, always good for satire.
 
An online petition to parliament to debate calling a new election has doubled in size overnight from around 150 thousand signatures to over 300 thousand.

that tells me that not many of the signatures are from the UK.

According to the Mail it's Starmer's "humiliation"

Still not anywhere near the 4 million signatures on the petition to rejoin the EU
 
Andy_Ross said:
An online petition to parliament to debate calling a new election has doubled in size overnight from around 150 thousand signatures to over 300 thousand.

that tells me that not many of the signatures are from the UK.

According to the Mail it's Starmer's "humiliation"

Still not anywhere near the 4 million signatures on the petition to rejoin the EU
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I think we have to go through a couple more Prime Ministers before having to even consider that.
 
Andy_Ross said:
An online petition to parliament to debate calling a new election has doubled in size overnight from around 150 thousand signatures to over 300 thousand.

that tells me that not many of the signatures are from the UK.

According to the Mail it's Starmer's "humiliation"

Still not anywhere near the 4 million signatures on the petition to rejoin the EU
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And let me guess that this 'petition' is on a site where they don't bother with trivialities like ensuring that any of the signatures are real? Also I would guess that you could probably find a similar body of people calling for an election at any time, here's one asking that Sunak call an election from the parliamentary website.
petition.parliament.uk

Archived Petition: Call an immediate general election

The Prime Minister should call an immediate general election to allow the British public to have their say on how we are governed, we should not be made to wait until January 2025
petition.parliament.uk petition.parliament.uk
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
Tinkering at the edges is no replacement for smashing the whole system.
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And there's your basic problem, most people don't want the system smashed, they want it to work well. They don't care who is being paid to run the NHS so long as they can see a doctor when they need to. They don't care if the local school is a comprehensive or an academy so long as their children get a decent education. They don't care if housing is private or social so long as they can afford somewhere to live. How can you have reached adulthood without understanding that. Or are you one of those 'socialists' who have contempt for ordinary people because they don't want your glorious revolution and don't care if they suffer in the name of smashing the system?
 
Garrison said:
And there's your basic problem, most people don't want the system smashed, they want it to work well. They don't care who is being paid to run the NHS so long as they can see a doctor when they need to. They don't care if the local school is a comprehensive or an academy so long as their children get a decent education. They don't care if housing is private or social so long as they can afford somewhere to live. How can you have reached adulthood without understanding that. Or are you one of those 'socialists' who have contempt for ordinary people because they don't want your glorious revolution and don't care if they suffer in the name of smashing the system?
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Riffing on this. There is no point in sunlit uplands two generations away if it causes massive pain now. One might as well say that WW2 was good because it lead to the Welfare State
 
Andy_Ross said:
Why do you want to smash the whole system?

Do you want to live in the Middle Ages?
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That's the fear those who own you have fed you your whole life.

Don't tax the Duke of Westminster, we'll end up in the middle ages. If fact, don't tax any ultra-wealthy person, we'll end up in the middle ages.

Well guess what, when you're playing Monopoly against someone who owns the vast majority of the board then you are going to lose. This is exactly what we have seen in real life: the ultra-wealthy pulling away from everyone else and the erosion of the middle class.

The ultra-wealthy will be acquiring the rest of our assets and be renting them back to our children.
 
Garrison said:
And there's your basic problem, most people don't want the system smashed, they want it to work well.
They don't care who is being paid to run the NHS so long as they can see a doctor when they need to. They don't care if the local school is a comprehensive or an academy so long as their children get a decent education. They don't care if housing is private or social so long as they can afford somewhere to live. How can you have reached adulthood without understanding that. Or are you one of those 'socialists' who have contempt for ordinary people because they don't want your glorious revolution and don't care if they suffer in the name of smashing the system?
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What might be the problem with doctors who are paid based on how much treatment they provide?
 
Andy_Ross said:
‪Lewis Goodall‬
John Prescott was a politician both behind and ahead of his time. Considered too bluff and old Labour to reach to the very top in the 90s, today his authenticity and class credentials would have been perfect to fight Farage and populism.
Labour needs more like him.
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Prescott was a useful tool for Blair to keep the left of the labour party under control. He achieved approximately nothing in his political career that was of significant benefit to the UK and went along with a lot that did significant harm.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
What might be the problem with doctors who are paid based on how much treatment they provide?
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It means they have a perverse incentive to have too few GPs in the practice, so I can't get to see a doctor when I want to. Which is Garrison's point. I don't want to smash the NHS because of the parts that aren't working. I want them fixed.
 
Elon says of the petition for a new election

"The people of Britain have had enough of a tyrannical police state"

I am suspicious of a petition that doubles in size in the middle of the night when everyone in the UK is asleep in bed.
 
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